Scottsdale Mooney Mishap

[Silvertown]

Here in Germany we have a lot of runways in the 1300 to 1800 ft range, soft and paved.

For me a very strange discussion because you have to settle your landing speeds according to POH.

On this runways you do 90 mph only once!

Where are the benefits of your behavior?

Mooney 4 ever

M 20 G

[Becca]

Quote: xftrplt

[Becca]

duplicate.

[Becca]

Quote: robert7467

Attached

[robert7467]

That looks like fun

But my flight instructor looks like a real badass, with his mean smile.

[robert7467]

In his flight suit

[robert7467]

Anyways, anyone want to buy a nice m20c with a fesh engine and prop?

[KSMooniac]

I was going to resist, but I can't help myself any longer.  Many months ago there was a newish Acclaim owner/pilot on here talking about landings and he was flying final at 90 knots and a bunch of us piled on in a polite way that we was not doing himself any favors "landing" in that fashion, and urged him to seek out additional instruction from a Mooney-savvy CFI.  He resisted, but ultimately did just that and came back on here to say how much he was missing previously, and with proper instruction he was now landing correctly.

You're in the same boat, but with even less experience in Mooneys.  90 mph or 90 knots is not an appropriate final approach speed IMO for all but the worst gusty conditions.  Every Mooney landing should be done with full flaps unless there is a very compelling reason not to, such as 15-20 knots of crosswind component.  Your instructor may be all-world and a great guy, but if you're not comfortable and confident landing with full flaps and the stall horn chirping then you are not ready to be a Mooney pilot.  I can't state it any simpler than that.  You're asking for a bounce/porpoise/prop strike sooner or later, or even an overrun on a short runway sometime should you try that.  At best you're needlessly beating on the airframe and wearing out brakes, tires, and gear donuts at a faster rate.

This thread didn't devolve to make you feel bad, but if there isn't a single Mooney owner/pilot here telling you that you're doing great, then you ought to re-think your position and get some additional instruction.  Please consider doing so for your sake, and for all of us paying insurance or shopping for undamaged Mooneys.  Don Kaye has a great landing video for sale/download on his website that would be a great place to start.

[gregwatts]

I have over 5000 hrs, 1 type rating, and did spend some time as a CFII. With approx. 2000 hrs in Mooneys.....I don't do touch and goes and I certainly recommend against it in a Mooney. I don't always use full flaps but almost always have at least TO flaps.

To be doing touch and goes while using 90 mph as the landing speed without flaps...........its only a matter of time!

 

My opinion only!

[davidsguerra]

there are old pilots & bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.

[Cris]

Has anyone considered what would happen to someone who was not able to make a touch and go after a poor approach or improper cross wind landing? While I appreciate the view points expressed on not doing T & G's I think it quite important for any Mooney pilot particularly those new to the breed that they be aware of the significant control inputs required to retrim the plane after a landing that starts to go awry. That is best handled with an instructor but I would not sign off a student unless they were able to demonstrate that tecnique just as  I would not sign them off without demonstrating correct cross wind tecnique. 

[mooneygirl]

I agree with Cris and Greg about the training/speed issues.  For me, in either the E or the R, I fly 100 on downwind, 90 on base, 80 on final, and 75 on short final.  Of course there are wind/gust/weather adjustments. I nearly always land full flaps.  Once I got the speeds in my head and under my control, with the 500 ft p/min descent on base and final, I really squeak it on most times.  For me, again IMPO, speed and control of the rate of descent are the big keys.  As many are aware, we have hundreds of landings on VIDEO with the Mooney Ambassdors.  Don Kaye has a great DVD on landings.  Of course there are lots of articles written, but practice is the key.

Speed grasshopper, or I will be taping you float float float down the runway!  HA--

[jetdriven]

Quote: jetdriven

Here we go again. There is a reason that Mooney Safety Foundation and Bonanza Pilot Proficiency Program all do not advocate or teach touch and go landings in complex arplanes. Because the potential for accidents is too great.  Honestly, after 150 landings, you haven't seen it all.  I have also seen several thousand-hour instructors teach single-engine go-arounds in Barons, which is 1 degree away from suicide. Every now and then they spin one in.

Its all about risk management.  I am fimrly in the camp that is against touch and go landings in a complex aircraft. And the benefit of two more landings per hour versus all that can go wrong is a bad tradeoff.  Dont listen to me. I an a CFI with 9000 hours and 3 type ratings. Listen to the experts with thousands of hours in Mooneys. Listen to the ones who crashed their planes monkeying around with something other than the yoke on the runway.  This is not a 172. It is not nearly as directionally stable. It is not nearly as forgiving on the runway. So you either grab the gear handle and make a 60K mistake, or you distract yourself and lose control of your aircraft.   And you cannot retract the gear in a 172 and total your aircraft, like this fellow did.  

http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=1&threadid=4132

 

Also, I have no idea why you come to land with 90 MPH over the numbers with no flaps. Your landing is going to take twice as long.  I would seriously reconsider that technique as well. If your CFI is teaching you this as a standard operating procedure he is doing you a huge disservice.   I know a M20J can cross the fence at 72 MPH and stop in 1200 feet pretty easily, because I own one and do it often. No drama.

[M016576]

Quote: xftrplt

Can't speak to Herc., but F-xx's may be mechanically complex, but much of that complexity is there to make them easy to fly...and land.  T&G's are a piece of cake:  push the throttle forward, you're airborne...even if S/E.  No reconfiguration or trimming necessary.  Unparalleled control and power.  Not to be be compared to relatively underpowered GA aircraft with slow (sometimes manual) trim, no auto-trim with flaps (or auto-flaps), and various controls all over the cockpit.  It's like a chicane in a Formula One versus a Pinto. 

[mooneygirl]

Here is the link to the prelim:  http://www.faa.gov/data_research/accident_incident/preliminary_data/media/G_0710_N.txt

[201er]

Quote: robert7467

By this weekend, I will master full flap landings if I feel compfortable with it. People learn in different ways, and if I am safe, and confident with no flaps, then so be it, as long as I am safe....

[xftrplt]

Bingo, Mike.

[jetdriven]

Quote: Cris

Has anyone considered what would happen to someone who was not able to make a touch and go after a poor approach or improper cross wind landing? While I appreciate the view points expressed on not doing T & G's I think it quite important for any Mooney pilot particularly those new to the breed that they be aware of the significant control inputs required to retrim the plane after a landing that starts to go awry. That is best handled with an instructor but I would not sign off a student unless they were able to demonstrate that tecnique just as  I would not sign them off without demonstrating correct cross wind tecnique. 

[fantom]

Quote: Becca

I look pretty badass in a flight suit myself,

 

[Lionudakis]

Quote: davidsguerra

there are old pilots & bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.

[scottfromiowa]

Quote: 201er

Cmon guys, can't you see that Robert is a troll? The thread started out about an unfortunate accident resultant on doing touch and goes and this supposed beginner stole the thread away making a mockery of the situation. He doesn't just disagree with specifics but about anything and everything that anyone has told him. He's just doing it for attention cause he's lonely (look how many times in a single day he's been on here replying). He's just saying everything to piss people off and push your buttons. Why would he be asking for advice on a forum if he thinks he's such a master already? He probably doesn't even fly a real airplane at all. And if he does, I would highly encourage the FAA to rethink his medical on mental health issues. Someone who'd actually have their a$$ on the line would not be taking things so frivolously. Please stop replying to him, he's hopeless, and go back to discussing what this thread started out about?

[231Pilot]

Robert, have you and your instructor gone up to the OLV prctice area (east of the airport) and determined the stall speeds in all possible landing configurations?  If you know those (and you should know them for solo, with passengers, full fuel, low fuel, etc.) then adjust your speed to 1.2-1.3X stall speed on final (I like 1.2X) and you will land easily.  Use your flaps, but trim nose up as you add flaps.  That is how your Mooney should land.  Do it at OLV or fly over to AWM and work on speed control and using your flaps.  Touch and gos are asking for trouble.  Landing without flaps is asking for control issues from too much speed.  I have over 400 Mooney hours (not much compared to others on this board) and have owned manual gear/hydraulic flaps and electric gear/flaps.  The principles are the same.  Control your speed and use your trim unless you want an incident or accident.  As for a badass instructor....I prefer a safeass instructor. 

I have been based at OLV (briefly because I had to take a tie-down) and AWM.  If the hangar situation at OLV is still "long waiting list to get a hangar", go to AWM and get a hangar and cheaper fuel.  It is not that far from Olive Branch and your Mooney will thank you for caring enough to put a roof over its head.

[robert7467]

201, right  now I have  it hangared in Millington. I called OLV and they said there is a waiting list fo 20 people. The plane has been hangared its whole life, I will do the 45 minute drive to keep it  that way. Where is AWM, Arlington?

[rob]

KAWM is West Memphis. Isn't that where you have the plane maintained?

[robert7467]

Yes, we have a mechanic based out of WM, but he normally comes to us.