Close call- Mooney vs. USAF Super Bonanza

[0TreeLemur]

Yesterday on a VFR cross-country with flight following at 9,500 ft from Pueblo, CO, to Tuscaloosa, AL, I traversed Vance AFB's airspace.   Vance Approach lowered me to 6,500 to get under their active MOA.  When I emerged from the eastern edge of Vance's airspace they handed me back over to Kansas City Center while still at 6,500 ft.  I asked ZKC if I could climb back up to 9,500 and they said sure because I was out of Vance's airspace.  While in the climb the ZKC controller said "N201Y traffic conflict turn left to 360 NOW!  Rapidly climbing traffic!"  The controller then said that it was a military aircraft that he wasn't talking to.   A short while later ZKC said traffic no factor, resume own navigation.

This morning I called the flight safety officer at Vance and spoke to him.  I didn't want to write a formal complaint and potentially ruin somebody's career, but I do hope that whomever did that can learn from it.

Anyone have a subscription to ADS-B Exchange?   I don't, but here's the flight history for my aircraft showing my diversion.  Date 7/20/25.  I didn't get the T-6's call sign.  They disappeared off my iPad before I could note it.  I'd be interested to know how close the call was.  I didn't see them because I was in a turn.

 

[MikeOH]

I'm trying to understand who did what wrong? It was VMC and you were VFR.  Yes, you were on FF, and good thing, but that's workload permitting NOT a guarantee.  What did the flight safety officer say?

[Jackk]

1 hour ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Yesterday on a VFR cross-country with flight following at 9,500 ft from Pueblo, CO, to Tuscaloosa, AL, I traversed Vance AFB's airspace.   Vance Approach lowered me to 6,500 to get under their active MOA.  When I emerged from the eastern edge of Vance's airspace they handed me back over to Kansas City Center while still at 6,500 ft.  I asked ZKC if I could climb back up to 9,500 and they said sure because I was out of Vance's airspace.  While in the climb the ZKC controller said "N201Y traffic conflict turn left to 360 NOW!  Rapidly climbing traffic!"  The controller then said that it was a military aircraft that he wasn't talking to.   A short while later ZKC said traffic no factor, resume own navigation.

This morning I called the flight safety officer at Vance and spoke to him.  I didn't want to write a formal complaint and potentially ruin somebody's career, but I do hope that whomever did that can learn from it.

Anyone have a subscription to ADS-B Exchange?   I don't, but here's the flight history for my aircraft showing my diversion.  Date 7/20/25.  I didn't get the T-6's call sign.  They disappeared off my iPad before I could note it.  I'd be interested to know how close the call was.  I didn't see them because I was in a turn.

 

 Both were VFR

 

 

 

https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?replay=2025-07-20-17:29&lat=36.379&lon=-96.929&zoom=9.5

 

oops think it was gizmo 

 

 

 

Edited July 22 by Jackk
Wrong T6

[0TreeLemur]

Ball11 was doing a bunch of maneuvering.   It looks like they started to climb but I guess when they became aware of the possible conflict they descended at 2,000 to 3,000 fpm and went under me.   I was in a steady climb at about 500 fpm, on an 800 nm cross-country.  I don't believe that I did anything wrong.   If a pilot is out maneuvering at high speed and high rates of climb/descent, I would hope that that pilot is doing it in a way that doesn't endanger anyone...   Don't they have MOA's for that?   I was vectored out of the USAF sandbox to avoid just this kind of stuff happening.

The Air Safety Officer said he would talk to the crew.  That's all.   I did not request any feedback, just that they learn from this.

[0TreeLemur]

My wild flight...

[Jackk]

6 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Ball11 was doing a bunch of maneuvering.   It looks like they started to climb but I guess when they became aware of the possible conflict they descended at 2,000 to 3,000 fpm and went under me.   I was in a steady climb at about 500 fpm, on an 800 nm cross-country.  I don't believe that I did anything wrong.   If a pilot is out maneuvering at high speed and high rates of climb/descent, I would hope that that pilot is doing it in a way that doesn't endanger anyone...   Don't they have MOA's for that?   I was vectored out of the USAF sandbox to avoid just this kind of stuff happening.

The Air Safety Officer said he would talk to the crew.  That's all.   I did not request any feedback, just that they learn from this.

 I edited my post, take a look, it was gizmo21 I think 

[N201MKTurbo]

So, you were both VFR and required to see and avoid. You said you never saw the other airplane. It sounds like the other plane saw you and avoided you, so the system worked. They weren’t doing anything wrong, and you weren’t doing anything wrong. What’s the problem?

[0TreeLemur]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

So, you were both VFR and required to see and avoid. You said you never saw the other airplane. It sounds like the other plane saw you and avoided you, so the system worked. They weren’t doing anything wrong, and you weren’t doing anything wrong. What’s the problem?

“What’s the problem?" The problem is being told by ATC to take hurried evasive action because someone decided to play Top Gun outside of their designated sandbox. I was already ordered down from 9,500 to 6,500 to stay clear of the MOA—fine, they can go nuts in there, that’s what it’s for. But when they’re out of the MOA in Class E, turning and burning where everyone is supposed to ‘see and avoid,’ they’re forcing unnecessary close calls. If they want to train, they have a massive chunk of airspace for it. Creating a near mid-air outside of that airspace is not the system ‘working’—it’s exactly what the system is supposed to prevent.

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

It looks like they started to climb but I guess when they became aware of the possible conflict they descended at 2,000 to 3,000 fpm and went under me.   I was in a steady climb at about 500 fpm, on an 800 nm cross-country.  I don't believe that I did anything wrong

Neither did they. They saw and avoided you.

The controller wasn't talking to them (nor was he or they required to be. Nor were you, for that matter), so he vectored you away.

I'm just not seeing that ANYONE did anything wrong.

[N201MKTurbo]

They have as much right to that airspace as you do. There is no regulation that restricts climb rate or maneuvering outside of an MOA. There are speed limits that I believe they can exceed in an MOA. As long as they kept below 250 KTS. They can legally do anything they want as long as they look where they are going.

As far as being given a turn for traffic by ATC that happens all the time, and being told to turn right now, is not that unusual.

FWIW, in 45 years of flying, I have had military planes make attack runs on me two, maybe three times.

[1980Mooney]

4 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Anyone have a subscription to ADS-B Exchange?   I don't, but here's the flight history for my aircraft showing my diversion.  Date 7/20/25.  I didn't get the T-6's call sign.  

You don't need a subscription - it's free. It used to be ad free also but there are a couple now that pop up on the map but can be easily closed.

[Aaviationist]

He’s thousands of feet below you, you’re both VFR, there was no issue. 
 

He wasn’t talking to the controller so he didn’t know intentions.  The system worked normally. The controller was being cautious. There was no danger, nobody did anything wrong, calling Vance seems extreme and excessive. 
 

at no time was there a “close call”

Edited July 22 by Aaviationist

[cbarry]

However frustrating this incident was, I think the best response is to contact ATC and say “THANK YOU” for the call out!  Thanks for sharing your story because it’s a reminder for all of us to keep our heads on a swivel! Heck, I remember a flight where a small gaggle of geese in tight formation popped out from the backside of cumulus cloud while I was on an IFR flight plan at 8000’ and my immediate thought was what the heck are they doing at this altitude for that direction of flight!!!  

[0TreeLemur]

9 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

You don't need a subscription - it's free. It used to be ad free also but there are a couple now that pop up on the map but can be easily closed.

Tell us, how did you pull up nationwide traffic at a point in the past?    The only history I could find was for a one aircraft.  I searched online and what I read indicated that to see nationwide traffic at some time in the past required a subscription.   I'd really like to know how to do that (without a subscription)!  Thanks.

[Rick Junkin]

12 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

But when they’re out of the MOA in Class E, turning and burning where everyone is supposed to ‘see and avoid,’ they’re forcing unnecessary close calls.

Just a hypothetical, but would the assertion be the same if the other aircraft was a Pitts legally doing aerobatics in Class E airspace?

[0TreeLemur]

11 hours ago, Rick Junkin said:

Just a hypothetical, but would the assertion be the same if the other aircraft was a Pitts legally doing aerobatics in Class E airspace?

I don't think that's a fair extrapolation.  We've all flown around aerobatic aircraft like Pitts.  There's no comparison.   A piston aerobatic airplane maneuvers in a cubic mile of airspace.  On an iPad they don't seem to move much.  You see them a long way off because you are flying towards THEM.  They sure as heck don't come at you in a dive from your 4:00 at over 200 knots.

My home field is Tuscaloosa, which is 50 nm from Columbus AFB.   T-6's fly all over the place around here.  We are surrounded by MOAs.   Those training flights from Columbus are extremely well behaved in my experience.  They play hard in their MOA's but fly very professionally outside of them.  I've never been jumped by one around here.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, 0TreeLemur said:

They play hard in their MOA's but fly very professionally outside of them.  I've never been jumped by one around here.

I had a front-row seat to some F16s playing above and in front of me near Shaw AFB in SC, and was silently followed by a Marine Corps Blackhawk that I flew over on the ground. I spotted him about 20 minutes later in the pattern to land at a beach grass strip, there he was when I made my turn--just sidestepped and watched me land. Wish he'd'a said something, I could have made following me more difficult than just droning along in a straight line . . . .

[dkkim73]

From reading this thread, we don't actually know if the pilot in the T-6 saw the OP or not. We would think/hope/want to assume that he or she did.

Possibly not. And I suppose it's possible that they were maneuvering under the assumption they were still in the MOA. I was always impressed how well the pilots kept track of MOA boundaries, even in less-glassy airplanes, when juggling a lot of things, but those were bigger slices I am thinking of. And this is a training base so who knows. From wikipedia it looks like Vance has a UPT program, so could be a newish student. 

They weren't talking to ATC. I don't recall a post above that the guy who answered the phone at Vance provided full details back. Maybe it was totally normal and no issue. Maybe it was a learning point for at least the IPs and program people. 

@0TreeLemur I don't think you were wrong to worry or call. 

I seem to recall back when I was a new instrument pilot reading about a Viper basically flying through a small Cessna. Things happen. The military pilots, especially the pointy-nosed types, are waaaaay better than most of us about maintaining awareness and generally keeping their **** out of the street than most of us, but things happen. 

 

 

[1980Mooney]

12 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Tell us, how did you pull up nationwide traffic at a point in the past?    The only history I could find was for a one aircraft.  I searched online and what I read indicated that to see nationwide traffic at some time in the past required a subscription.   I'd really like to know how to do that (without a subscription)!  Thanks.

Easy Peasy.

1. Open ADSBEXCHANGE Map page  https://globe.adsbexchange.com/
2. Click on the "Replay" button (circled in red)
3. Set the date in the dropdown calendar.  (shown with orange arrow) 
   1. Set the Zulu time in hours and minutes
   2. Move the map to the area which you are interested
   3. Set the replay speed. (circled in yellow)
      1. You can watch realtime or you can accelerate to as much as 244 X actual speed (so if you are in a hurry and you accelerated the playback to 244X, a jet flying at 450 knots would appear to be flying at 110,000 knots!)
   4. You can Start and Pause it
   5. You can manually run the hours and minutes ahead and back by moving the slider switches
4. Wait a bit because it is loading a LOT OF DATA
5. Shown is the Houston area on Christmas Eve at 1705 Z
   1. You can toggle showing aircraft registration, Track and flight data 

 

 

 

Edited July 23 by 1980Mooney

[Jackk]

12 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Tell us, how did you pull up nationwide traffic at a point in the past?    The only history I could find was for a one aircraft.  I searched online and what I read indicated that to see nationwide traffic at some time in the past required a subscription.   I'd really like to know how to do that (without a subscription)!  Thanks.

Look at the link I posted in my first post 

[Jackk]

17 hours ago, Aaviationist said:

He’s thousands of feet below you, you’re both VFR, there was no issue. 
 

He wasn’t talking to the controller so he didn’t know intentions.  The system worked normally. The controller was being cautious. There was no danger, nobody did anything wrong, calling Vance seems extreme and excessive. 
 

at no time was there a “close call”

 Yeah, I edited my post, look at the bottom

 

 gizmo was doing about 2000fpm towards OP, seeing how he leveled out I’d wager he ether A saw him or B was monitoring ATC 

[0TreeLemur]

38 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Easy

Hey- thanks for the detailed instructions on how to play back on ADS-B Exchange!    That is a really cool feature!  I am really happy to know how to do that.  Much appreciated.

Looking at the play-by-play it was not as close as the urgency in the controller's voice indicated when he issued the command for me to turn.  That's what made me think it was close.  I never saw the other airplane.

From the replay it seems like Ball11 either saw me or had me on a display and decided to dive to pass under me.  When we were closest on the map he had descended to 5,000 and I was at 7500 and still climbing.   Not close.

I think the controller scared me.   I appreciate them doing their job and doing it well. 

1 hour ago, dkkim73 said:

military pilots, especially the pointy-nosed types, are waaaaay better than most of us about maintaining awareness

I agree- and it seems that this was the case in my instance here.   I learned from this.

[RescueMunchkin]

Do you have any kind of adsb-in receiver? I feel like I'm driving a car without a seatbelt without my adsb-in when flying.

Edited July 24 by RescueMunchkin

[0TreeLemur]

22 hours ago, RescueMunchkin said:

Do you have any kind of adsb-in receiver?

Yes- a Stratus III displayed on iPad and it is always on.  On the down side it was a rapidly evolving situation with quite a bit of traffic.  When Ball11 turned towards me they were flying faster than 250 knots.

To add to the lack of situational awareness I was flying in the direction of the sun making the iPad hard to see due to reflections.  A couple of years ago I looked into getting a certified ADS-B in solution to display traffic on my Avidyne IFD540, but that costs about 3AMUs.   That would be easier to see under those conditions.   They say you can use the open ADS-B protocol to display traffic from a Stratus III on the Avidyne.  I tried it and it works,  but it screws up the display on the iPad so that's a no go, unless they've fixed that.

[N201MKTurbo]

If you think that is a lot of traffic, you should fly around here sometime. It will make you immune to traffic.