Duration of Annual

[Danb]

Something we need to do every year obviously there’s a shortage of mechanics along with a backlog of aircraft waiting to get there annual completed. From drop off of plane till pickup how long has your last annual taken. Is there an apparent solution.

 

DB

[aviatoreb]

4 minutes ago, Danb said:

Something we need to do every year obviously there’s a shortage of mechanics along with a backlog of aircraft waiting to get there annual completed. From drop off of plane till pickup how long has your last annual taken. Is there an apparent solution.

 

DB

How long is it taking yours?

[Hank]

My guy is holding at two weeks the last couple of years.

[Marc_B]

@Danb I'm dealing with this now.  I'm into week 6 and still not a definite ETA.  List is small and only has minor squawks (tighten this, adjust that), and this is probably my most simple annual yet.  Only parts to wait for were GFC500 servos that I was getting warranty exchange for (my pitch servo crapped out) and asked if that would delay annual if we did it on drop off; told Garmin says it takes ~2 days to ship new ones and we can easily get it done before the annual is done.

My last 3 annuals have taken 3-4 weeks; first one was the first time they inspected my mooney; one of these I replaced baffles; one of these I did a 500hr IRAN mag and installed a SureFly.

I think the Mooney is seeing more back burner time because there are more airplanes than humans fixing them.  I suspect that unfortunately there isn't a solution, I just wish my shop communicated delays better so I had a clear expectation of when to expect communication and what to plan for.  This year I still haven't even received a cost estimate or ETA at all.  Needless to say I'm as frustrated as you are.  But I'm perpetually wondering if the grass is greener on the other side...I suspect it also has just as many weeds...or is that cobwebs? 

I'm guessing that as GA contracts, more people going through A&P school take jobs working on the commercial aviation side.  I'm still trying to figure out how we set up a Concierge service like Mike Busch has talked about.  I think the leverage would be a single A&P working on a small group of planes with a membership...unfortunately I suspect that would be better served with an A&P who's winding down, rather than just getting started and would potentially come with enough insecurity that it'd be hard to find and replicate.

I'm thinking that the only way to control how long it takes is by moving to owner assisted maintenance with an available and accommodating A&P/IA.

[Schllc]

Is it duration alone or a combination of duration and communication?

Years ago I scheduled an annual with a very well revered shop, the owner promised me a turn around so quick I could wait in a hotel. 
 

One belligerent phone call and 10 weeks later I get texted a video of a loose turbo housing. No text, no explanation, no suggestion. 
Followed by no response to my questions, call or emails for three more weeks, only to find out they had not ordered the turbo bc they needed my permission to do so….

The captive market nature of this genre, shapes customer service, and not for the better. 
 

Shame on me for being so optimisticly suckered…

[Danb]

3 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

How long is it taking yours?

Week six so far Saw your plane there unfortunately engine wasn’t hung yet.

D

[Ragsf15e]

Yikes. I guess im lucky.  I do help my IA with it (simple stuff and cleaning), but he schedules well in advance and generally focuses on the airplane.  I haven’t had more than 2 weeks unless I was waiting on my prop oh or my oxygen bottle recert.  Generally we finish in one week and then he wants it out of his shop.

[Fritz1]

There are large demographic and economical forces at play that wiggle small airplanes around like a dog wiggling its tail. One way for the OP to get ahead is to get personally involved, do dirty and boring work, find parts, nudge the schedule, buy pizza, generally become a guy that is good to have around, the shop has to have the feeling that the OP fixes more problems than he causes, profitability is higher with the OP doing stuff than with the OP not involved, by doing helper work you replace a guy that costs the shop let's say $30/h and is billed out at let's say $110/h. OP has to find a way to balance that out. Once the balance is established it is beneficial for everybody, once the shop trusts you they let you comb through there parts storage on weekends because they know you pay on Monday and bring pizza. This works for handy people, the shop then has to explain to Joe why Phil is allowed to work on his own airplane while Joe is not allowed to enter the premises. The concierge service means in the last consequence that the OP owns and operates a maintenance shop, beware what you wish for, once upon a time I knew a guy in Vienna Austria who owned a Citation, unhappy with the performance of the avionics shop he bought it and started to manage it as a hobby, think he got personal pleasure out of it, RAF trained fighter pilot and successful business guy. Key to successful small pane maintenance is to find the best setup you can and then support, manage, and subsidize it as needed and you will achieve amazing things, I keep fingers crossed....

[natdm]

All of my first 3 annuals took months and $$$ because the first pre-purchase turned annual didn't catch a damn thing. Lucky it didn't have corrosion. 

Right now the plane is at Willmar for the first annual from them, and Eric said all the airworthy stuff is done (nothing found), and they're just patching surface corrosion. I can take it when I want if I need a trip and bring it back, even. But it's been there two weeks -- I'll get it back Wednesday, and he apologized for being slow.

Keep in mind that it was down for 7 months getting a lot fixed firewall forward. I'm glad to hear he said it was A+ in the engine bay and not a thing was wrong.

[atpdave]

I still believe airworthiness inspections should be good for 24 months instead of 12. It’s not reasonable for a plane to be out of service for a month or more every year.

[Schllc]

2 minutes ago, atpdave said:

I still believe airworthiness inspections should be good for 24 months instead of 12. It’s not reasonable for a plane to be out of service for a month or more every year.

If this change were to actually occur, it would have an impact on the behavior and service of many shops. I have found a provider I am comfortable with. They are honest, generally on time, and above all, the communication is excellent. 
I pay for this, but I am happy to because there is nothing worse than having your plane down. 

[varlajo]

4 full days, owner-assisted

[Marc_B]

53 minutes ago, Fritz1 said:

One way for the OP to get ahead is to get personally involved, do dirty and boring work, find parts, nudge the schedule, buy pizza, generally become a guy that is good to have around, the shop has to have the feeling that the OP fixes more problems than he causes

I don't think that's the issue.  I brought a freshly smoked brisket for my avionics install, have brought them pizza, usually pay the day I pick up or put a check in the mail the day I receive an invoice.  But they are still swamped enough that it took a month to finally get me in to troubleshoot a transponder antenna.

The delays seen AREN'T because your shop doesn't like you and you're a nuisance (okay, maybe some people are).  It's because their plate is full and they can't eat everything at once.  So it's a continual process of triage and sometimes that works in your favor (i.e. AOG) and sometimes it just leads to delays that they probably don't like either.

But the unclear expectations cause the most frustrations.  The aspect of maintenance that I think a lot of shops could improve on was setting a clear expectation.  Use the Disney phenomenon of under-promising and over-delivering.

If my shop gave me a squawk list and I could say "I'll come into the shop and take care of 3, 5, 7-10 and 12" and they were okay with it, I'd love it!!  Instead it's often things they already addressed during the inspection and rolled into the bill.  They don't want me in the shop, they'd prefer that I leave the plane and a blank check, and say take care of it all and call me when it's done.  That's the way to maximize THEIR efficiency.  Not pizza.

[Danb]

15 minutes ago, Schllc said:

If this change were to actually occur, it would have an impact on the behavior and service of many shops. I have found a provider I am comfortable with. They are honest, generally on time, and above all, the communication is excellent. 
I pay for this, but I am happy to because there is nothing worse than having your plane down. 

I don’t think the amount an annual cost plays into the duration it’s become apparent that MSC’s are overly booked therefore it just gains dust sitting there. 

[Marc_B]

I'd be curious for the A&P's out there.  What can an owner do that helps you?

1)  I'd imagine first off start your own troubleshooting and have a clear idea of the problem from the start

2)  parts...would you rather me source my own parts, or would you much rather purchase them yourself and take advantage of the markup?

3)  small jobs...do you like small jobs that you can round up shop time and have an easy problem to address, or do you just want jobs that take longer than the hours you bill?

4) gifts...does pizza, doughnuts, gifts make you more appreciative of my business or is there something else I could do to show my appreciation for a job well done?

5) advertising...how can I help you best to spread praise for your shop?  word of mouth?  online reviews?  boards such as this?

6) how long SHOULD I wait before calling or emailing?  Is a call more disruptive or does an email take longer to answer?  Is a check in (in person vs call) in 1-2 weeks unreasonable?  Should I be waiting for YOU to contact me?  

7) what are your biggest pet peeves with me (or other owners) in general?

8) Would you rather address every squawk you find at annual or would you rather me take a more proactive roll in addressing the list and defer the items that aren't airworthy for me to address on my own (or at a later time)?

9)  Would you rather me perform maintenance during the year to arrive at annual with as short a list as possible, or is it better for me to keep a list of squawks and address them all at once at annual?

[Ragsf15e]

41 minutes ago, Danb said:

I don’t think the amount an annual cost plays into the duration it’s become apparent that MSC’s are overly booked therefore it just gains dust sitting there. 

I think over scheduling is a significant problem for many shops.  I have seen mine turn down customers who don’t schedule out far enough, don’t want their planes maintained to a high standard or are a pia.  By turning some down, they can focus on the ones they have and stay on schedule which makes everyone happy.  They can fit in a few unscheduled issues (not a whole annual) with a couple weeks notice, but Ive never seen the shop idle, so they aren’t limiting their productivity.

[hubcap]

I feel very fortunate. The folks I use schedule annuals a year out. I already have Myrtle scheduled to go in February 12th. It will take 1 - 2 weeks for the annual unless they find something that requires ordering parts. When we know we are going to be sending mags, fuel pumps or anything else out for overhaul, they pull those items first and get them sent out right away. On average the annuals have averaged 2 - 3 weeks total.

[PT20J]

There are a lot of components to what we call an annual inspection.

1. Open up the airplane for inspection.

2. While it is open, clean the engine and do routine lubrication.

3. Inspection.

4. Make a squawk list.

5. Complete airworthy items on squawk list.

6. Compete or defer non-airworthiness items on squawk list.

7. Verify ADs and Service Bulletin compliance.

8. Close up airplane.

9. Perform post maintenance run up, maybe flight check.

10. Complete logbook entry and return to service.

I do 1, 2, 8, 9 myself and usually 5 and 6 under supervision. It takes about a week. The actual inspection by the IA is only a few hours for which he charges me a flat fee. I keep the airplane up well, so there is seldom much in the way of squawks to fix. 

 

[Utah20Gflyer]

I think the best thing you can do to keep annuals reasonable is to fix things as they come up rather than deferring things to the annual.  Either way you are going to spend a fair amount of time maintaining your airplane.  So work on your plane a little all year round or a lot for a couple weeks.  That being said my mechanic and I always find a few things that need attention during the annual.   If that thing requires a hard to get part then you get the dreaded long annual.   There is no getting around that.  It’s just baked into the process.  
 

My annuals range from 2 days to over 3 months.

On a more annoying technical note the annual inspection only includes the actual inspection.  That should be a concise activity.  You can have the inspection and have the IA immediately sign off the Annual with discrepancies.   You wouldn’t be airworthy but you would be done with your annual inspection.  So really an annual inspection should only take a couple days no matter how bad the condition of the airplane is.   I get this isn’t how most people go through the practice - but I feel like being that guy today.  

[Marc_B]

2 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

You can have the inspection and have the IA immediately sign off the Annual with discrepancies.

Fortunately my shop signs off the logs and annual when they're done.  I'd be super irritated if my annual was signed of and then the following month returned to service.  At least with this year I moved from a May 2025 expiration date to a July 2026 exp.

[aviatoreb]

8 hours ago, Danb said:

Week six so far Saw your plane there unfortunately engine wasn’t hung yet.

D

...I miss my plane!  They are promising early August.  Is it bad if I wish July away?  :-O

Well it should be a kick ass new engine for my old bird.

[skydvrboy]

I dropped my plane off for annual six weeks before I told them I really needed (wanted) it back.  They told me they could make that happen.  I was a little worried when they hadn't pulled it into the shop after four weeks, but once they got it in the shop, it was done in a week.  Fortunately, there were very few discrepancies found this year.

On the other end, my longest annual was a little over six months!

[EricJ]

I had an IA that I worked with before I got my IA, and even before I got my A&P we could get the entire process done in a couple days.   Only a day and a half was with the IA, the first half day was me opening up the airplane and getting it ready for the inspection.    As others have mentioned, a key to being able to do that is to not have any deferred maintenance.    If the airplane is in good shape, the inspection shouldn't be an arduous task.   And my IA was not prone to let anything slide, and wasn't even that thrilled about an owner-assisted annual other than getting some slave labor opening things up and putting it back together.   It is definitely good experience for an owner, though, and I highly recommend it when the situation allows for it.

 

[Fly Boomer]

46 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Well it should be a kick ass new engine for my old bird.

Who did your engine, and who is installing it?  I have a similar engine.

[aviatoreb]

24 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Who did your engine, and who is installing it?  I have a similar engine.

RAAM.

R&R at Weber.

Edited 3 hours ago by aviatoreb