Landing Speed Ovation 3

[Healthpilot]

I uploaded 50 flights and used Flysto.net to evaluate landing speed and glide slope angle and ground roll etc. primarily on a 5,000ft and 3,000ft runway. Best landing speed over threshold for my average WB configuration seems to be 73kts over the threshold. If ight and short runway below 70kts at the threshold. If light I managed to get a small bounce on the main even with speed of 69kts over the threshold... Check last image with yellow highlight. So frustrating! Regardless, Ovation consistently touches down at 60kts in landing configuration. If I have a steeper approach angle I have to pull back power a lot more aggressively. Love this website.  I thought I would share. Still free for now.  Love to hear your thoughts if you also use it and how. 

 

[Alan Maurer]

I have an Ovation 3 M20R. and I am fairly firm about 75kts indicated on final. Agree that a few knots slower works OK but it seems that anything faster can result in a 

bounce. After round out , I can close the throttle or leave a touch of power to keep things smooth. . And since these airplanes like to float, I am just patient.

This works OK for me. Hope to see a few more opinions!

Alan

N913ND

[Max Clark]

I use 70-75 KIAS as my final approach speed - it's easy to remember and easy to track in my scan. As soon as I'm over the threshold I'm removing power to idle, couldn't tell you what my actual touchdown speed is.

The POH will tell you speeds for normal operation, but in the performance section you'll find the landing distance details. Weight effects everything, including the speed you should be landing at. Personally I'm not trying to calculate my landing weight on the fly and use the 70-75 target. I don't have enough hours/training to be the authority on this, but my guess is that part of what your experiencing is this.

[NickG]

6 minutes ago, Max Clark said:

I use 70-75 KIAS as my final approach speed - it's easy to remember and easy to track in my scan. As soon as I'm over the threshold I'm removing power to idle, couldn't tell you what my actual touchdown speed is.

The POH will tell you speeds for normal operation, but in the performance section you'll find the landing distance details. Weight effects everything, including the speed you should be landing at. Personally I'm not trying to calculate my landing weight on the fly and use the 70-75 target. I don't have enough hours/training to be the authority on this, but my guess is that part of what your experiencing is this.

Yes, you beat me to it. I generally follow the POH -75 for 3200#, 71 for 2900 and 68 if in some dreamland that I'm actually landing at 2600#. I have 86 flights in Flysto and I'm touching down anywhere from 60-65 kts. I like to be over threshold NO FASTER than 75 if I can't quite make the weight adjusted number . If I haven't got the speed where I want it at 500 ft I'm either going around or I'll get ready to float. When I first got the Ovation (3) it was a very steep learning curve for me. I kept trying to wrestle the plane to the ground as I could my Piper if it wasn't on speed - and had many a bounce to tell about as a result.  Luckily never struck a prop or worse. 168 hours in now and I can report my landings are finally OK! Speed management is everything.

[Jeff_S]

Those numbers sound about right and they match well with the same data I get out of CloudAhoy.  But truth be told, I am more amazed that with enough time and practice I do this mostly by feel at this point.  Like hitting a 3° glideslope on final...you just know it when you see it.  I check my glide path on CloudAhoy and it's usually locked onto that line.  That's the TLAR syndrome: that looks about right.  As I approach the numbers I transition to a TFAR method: that FEELS about right.  And I consistently touch down right before the 1000' runway markers

And please know that I am not humble-bragging here, at least not intentionally.  My point is to be amazed at how with enough time and practice the human body and mind can do so many things intuitively.  You don't think about driving your car anymore, you just do it.  Or golfing or surfing or playing the piano or whatever else you do for fun.  And that's when it truly does become FUN because now you're playing instead of working at it.

Having said all that, I think I'll go out and have some fun!

[Bigdaddie]

I am no Don Kay (Mooney flight instructor extraordinaire) and these are just my findings after flying high performance aircraft for over 40 years. Any Mooney Guru feel free to correct me on any of these points. I have over 15k hours with about 2k of that being single engine general aviation airplanes and much of that as a CFI. I bounce (no pun intended) between an Airbus A350 and my M20K, so finding consistency has been tough as I start the flare at 50’ in one aircraft while I feel like I’m landing  in a hole in the other.  Through experimenting, the old adage of “stabilized approach” is very important.  Your numbers are right on (even though you have an Ovation and me a M20K, it’s the same wing) using 75kcas when heavy and 70kcas at lighter weights.  Make sure you’re stabilized at these speeds by 500’ with checklist complete; if you’re flying an instrument approach, I highly recommend that this be done by the FAF.

Now for the fun part. You can’t fly a Mooney like a 172 and pull the power off when the runway is “made” because (for me anyway) this sets up way too high of a sink rate. You also can’t carry power to touchdown unless you have a 7,000’ runway. The transition from final to flare is very important.  This is what I have found sets up a normal sink rate and reasonable energy at touchdown.

1)      Be on speed and stable (mixture, prop, throttle, and flaps) set at about 500’ AGL. Sometimes I use the last 10degrees of flaps to adjust my speed or glidepath if not right on.

2)      About 500’ from your intended touchdown point (horizontal distance not AGL) quit looking at the airspeed (unless it is way off) and start reducing the power toward idle while starting your round out.

3)      At about 10-20’ above the runway the power should be idle.  Keep increasing your back pressure and, if done just right, touch down on the mains with the stall warning just going off and when you are using significant nose up elevator pressure.  Some people like to trim nose up while  in the flare. Be careful, as adding go around power will result in significant forward stick forces to maintain proper go around attitude.

Speaking of go arounds:

1)      If you bounce, GO AROUND!

2)      If you float and start porpoising, GO AROUND!

3)      The BIGGIE. If you touchdown nose wheel first, GO AROUND! There is no saving this landing and will likely result in a new prop and engine IRAN.

I have attached a couple of references I have found helpful.

Take care, fly fast on little gas but do it safely!

Steve

Wayne Fisher on Landing.pdf Landing Cheat Sheet.pdf

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Bigdaddie said:

I am no Don Kay (Mooney flight instructor extraordinaire) and these are just my findings after flying high performance aircraft for over 40 years. Any Mooney Guru feel free to correct me on any of these points. I have over 15k hours with about 2k of that being single engine general aviation airplanes and much of that as a CFI. I bounce (no pun intended) between an Airbus A350 and my M20K, so finding consistency has been tough as I start the flare at 50’ in one aircraft while I feel like I’m landing  in a hole in the other.  Through experimenting, the old adage of “stabilized approach” is very important.  Your numbers are right on (even though you have an Ovation and me a M20K, it’s the same wing) using 75kcas when heavy and 70kcas at lighter weights.  Make sure you’re stabilized at these speeds by 500’ with checklist complete; if you’re flying an instrument approach, I highly recommend that this be done by the FAF.

Now for the fun part. You can’t fly a Mooney like a 172 and pull the power off when the runway is “made” because (for me anyway) this sets up way too high of a sink rate. You also can’t carry power to touchdown unless you have a 7,000’ runway. The transition from final to flare is very important.  This is what I have found sets up a normal sink rate and reasonable energy at touchdown.

1)      Be on speed and stable (mixture, prop, throttle, and flaps) set at about 500’ AGL. Sometimes I use the last 10degrees of flaps to adjust my speed or glidepath if not right on.

2)      About 500’ from your intended touchdown point (horizontal distance not AGL) quit looking at the airspeed (unless it is way off) and start reducing the power toward idle while starting your round out.

3)      At about 10-20’ above the runway the power should be idle.  Keep increasing your back pressure and, if done just right, touch down on the mains with the stall warning just going off and when you are using significant nose up elevator pressure.  Some people like to trim nose up while  in the flare. Be careful, as adding go around power will result in significant forward stick forces to maintain proper go around attitude.

Speaking of go arounds:

1)      If you bounce, GO AROUND!

2)      If you float and start porpoising, GO AROUND!

3)      The BIGGIE. If you touchdown nose wheel first, GO AROUND! There is no saving this landing and will likely result in a new prop and engine IRAN.

I have attached a couple of references I have found helpful.

Take care, fly fast on little gas but do it safely!

Steve

Wayne Fisher on Landing.pdf 523.52 kB · 1 download Landing Cheat Sheet.pdf 2.27 MB · 1 download

One thing I notice about my Mooney (and even the PA-46T Im flying for work) is that wherever you decide to pull the power towards idle (from your stable approach) and start transitioning to your round out/flare, it’s very easy to let the nose fall a little short of your original aim point.  If the aircraft is trimmed it pretty much does this on its own.  If you don’t increase back pressure to maintain the aim point, you will increase your descent rate and landings become less consistent.  Increasing back pressure slightly as power comes off to hold the aim point and transition into the flare makes the whole thing much easier to execute similarly each time.  The speed slowly comes off as you hold the aim point in idle and transition to the flare, so timing is still important.

edit: for most of us with a GA background this is pretty obvious or at least our instructors told us about it.  However, depending on the configuration, some jets do the opposite which is weird.  Or they might hold the aimpoint which can give you (me) bad habits.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Bigdaddie said:

You can’t fly a Mooney like a 172 and pull the power off when the runway is “made” because (for me anyway) this sets up way too high of a sink rate. You also can’t carry power to touchdown unless you have a 7,000’ runway.

While I agree with your points about going around, I've not found this part to be true. I originally thought it must be a long body thing, but your K is a mid-body.

I routinely pull throttle to idle in my C well before the numbers; a Piper pilot once commented after we landed that if he'd pulled his throttle to idle when I did, he would have been in the trees, but in my little C, "nothing happened!" 

This is a recent landing at home after a 3+ hours XC, so it's a little bumpy. Please ignore the dog whimpering in the back seat. Every change in throttle is clearly visible, even though loaded heavy I kept more in longer than on a solo flight.

https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/1056960197

 

[Bigdaddie]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

While I agree with your points about going around, I've not found this part to be true. I originally thought it must be a long body thing, but your K is a mid-body.

I routinely pull throttle to idle in my C well before the numbers; a Piper pilot once commented after we landed that if he'd pulled his throttle to idle when I did, he would have been in the trees, but in my little C, "nothing happened!" 

This is a recent landing at home after a 3+ hours XC, so it's a little bumpy. Please ignore the dog whimpering in the back seat. Every change in throttle is clearly visible, even though loaded heavy I kept more in longer than on a solo flight.

https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/1056960197

 

And I have a three blade prop which exacerbates the sink rate without power.

[Hank]

50 minutes ago, Bigdaddie said:

And I have a three blade prop which exacerbates the sink rate without power.

Me, too. Hartzell 3-blade, 201 windshield. 

[Bigdaddie]

19 hours ago, Hank said:

While I agree with your points about going around, I've not found this part to be true. I originally thought it must be a long body thing, but your K is a mid-body.

I routinely pull throttle to idle in my C well before the numbers; a Piper pilot once commented after we landed that if he'd pulled his throttle to idle when I did, he would have been in the trees, but in my little C, "nothing happened!" 

This is a recent landing at home after a 3+ hours XC, so it's a little bumpy. Please ignore the dog whimpering in the back seat. Every change in throttle is clearly visible, even though loaded heavy I kept more in longer than on a solo flight.

https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/1056960197

 

It's hard to tell in the video but it seems like you gradually reduced power and went to idle about the time you crossed the runway pavement. In my K, if I start at 75kts and pull the power to idle, it takes maybe 10 seconds to be at stall warning unless you let the rate of descent to increase to an alarming rate.  At best glide speed which is 76-87kts depending on weight, with gear and flaps up, the descent rate is 700-800 fpm. I'll have to experiment but I'm guessing I'm like 1,200fpm or more at idle with gear and flaps down. The only way to keep a stabilized approach is to trade airspeed for descent rate and this has to be timed just right.

The difference in airframes and engines is very interesting.

BD

[Bigdaddie]

21 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

One thing I notice about my Mooney (and even the PA-46T Im flying for work) is that wherever you decide to pull the power towards idle (from your stable approach) and start transitioning to your round out/flare, it’s very easy to let the nose fall a little short of your original aim point.  If the aircraft is trimmed it pretty much does this on its own.  If you don’t increase back pressure to maintain the aim point, you will increase your descent rate and landings become less consistent.  Increasing back pressure slightly as power comes off to hold the aim point and transition into the flare makes the whole thing much easier to execute similarly each time.  The speed slowly comes off as you hold the aim point in idle and transition to the flare, so timing is still important.

edit: for most of us with a GA background this is pretty obvious or at least our instructors told us about it.  However, depending on the configuration, some jets do the opposite which is weird.  Or they might hold the aimpoint which can give you (me) bad habits.

I'm originally from GA, but what you said about jets is correct.  I flew the 737, 757, 767, 727, and MD88.  The 757 had pretty large pitch changes with power changes.  So much so you really didn't want to leave autothrottles (auto thrust in Airbus, go figure) on too long on approach if you're hand flying.  I've had it make lage power changes on short final which can really screw up your stabilized approach.  Now fifi (Airbus) autotrims in normal law so you notice no difference. If you're ILS needles centered at the FAF, you can pretty much fly hands off to MDA/DA in calm air.  As a matter of fact I've scewed up some approaches by attempting to make that LITTLE correction.

BD 

[Ragsf15e]

3 hours ago, Bigdaddie said:

I'm originally from GA, but what you said about jets is correct.  I flew the 737, 757, 767, 727, and MD88.  The 757 had pretty large pitch changes with power changes.  So much so you really didn't want to leave autothrottles (auto thrust in Airbus, go figure) on too long on approach if you're hand flying.  I've had it make lage power changes on short final which can really screw up your stabilized approach.  Now fifi (Airbus) autotrims in normal law so you notice no difference. If you're ILS needles centered at the FAF, you can pretty much fly hands off to MDA/DA in calm air.  As a matter of fact I've scewed up some approaches by attempting to make that LITTLE correction.

BD 

I flew a Lear a couple times and the guy teaching me basically just said, “when you want to flare, just pull power to idle.”  Sure enough, the high mounted engines hold the nose down on approach with thrust, but the nose pitches up (a little) as you pull to idle.  It makes for an acceptable landing which is all you want in a Lear because trying to slow that damn thing down on the runway is what you really want to focus on!  The F15 trimmed to a G (usually 1G), so it would sort of stay where you pointed it.  I don’t remember anything happening when you pulled power to land.  It was a pussycat if you were on speed and light.  If you were fast or heavy, it would be easy to end up with your brakes on fire in the departure end cable!