Debriefing after possible ATC blunder today

[DXB]

On 4/3/2025 at 9:26 AM, wombat said:

Perhaps the original problem isn't a math problem on the controller's part, it's a timing problem.

They could have been waiting for something before giving you that final turn and clearing you for the approach.  Maybe for another aircraft to pass the MAP or maybe for the end of the episode of Ren And Stimpy or whatever. Doesn't matter.    They expected you to still be to the right of the final approach course and gave you a heading that would work in that case, but you had already flown past it so the heading they gave you no longer worked.

The Seattle Approach controllers fly me through the final approach course fairly often when I am on the approach to Boeing Field (KBFI).    Then I have to get a much larger turn to re-intercept.      

 

The underlying problem here is that you were flying too fast!  If you'd been 10Kt slower, you would have been to the right of the approach course when they gave you that last turn. What speed mods have you done?   Did you get the PowerFlow exhaust?   Did you leave your ram air door open?  Al Mooney strikes again!!  

It's one thing to be vectored through the approach course and then given a turn back to intercept.  Here I was first told to intercept it on a heading that took me slightly away from the approach course, then when I finally noticed the error and spoke up, I was  given a 60 degree intercept angle in close to the final fix - a stressful event for a rank amateur like me while hand flying in the clouds.   Also I'm confident I was not too fast - I always pull power back to 18"/2300 (~115kt IAS level) in late stages of getting vectored  onto the approach, and in contrast to your Rocket, I fly a humble C model 

Regardless, subsequent discussion on here and with others has made it a useful learning experience.  I was again flying the same approach in nearly identical weather conditions a couple days ago. I felt much better prepared, but unfortunately the controller threw me a softball with a <30 intercept angle well outside the gate (the kind of thing I previously felt entitled to ).

 

[Sue Bon]

2 hours ago, DXB said:

a rank amateur like me while hand flying in the clouds.

You showed excellent situational awareness, given the workload you had. Nice work.

[wombat]

6 hours ago, DXB said:

It's one thing to be vectored through the approach course and then given a turn back to intercept.  Here I was first told to intercept it on a heading that took me slightly away from the approach course, then when I finally noticed the error and spoke up, I was  given a 60 degree intercept angle in close to the final fix - a stressful event for a rank amateur like me while hand flying in the clouds.   Also I'm confident I was not too fast - I always pull power back to 18"/2300 (~115kt IAS level) in late stages of getting vectored  onto the approach, and in contrast to your Rocket, I fly a humble C model 

Regardless, subsequent discussion on here and with others has made it a useful learning experience.  I was again flying the same approach in nearly identical weather conditions a couple days ago. I felt much better prepared, but unfortunately the controller threw me a softball with a <30 intercept angle well outside the gate (the kind of thing I previously felt entitled to ).

 

By 'timing' I mean timing on the controller's part... They might have thought you had not yet crossed the approach course even though you actually had crossed it already.   And then they didn't check that they'd actually given you the instruction before crossing the course, they just gave you their pre-planned heading and moved on with their lives.

 

And for the speed thing, I was making a joke...   You were (I assume!) flying a Mooney, so of course you were going super fast!   All Mooneys are fast!   Rocket or a C.      But seriously they could have assumed you were in a 172 or a 152 and mentally assigned you 90 knots or something.   But it's probably more like "Oh, they are a light GA plane, they'll reach the final approach course in about 90 seconds from where they are on my screen" but they were just wrong.

I do think the sharp intercept angle is a serious bad on their part.  Although when looking at the ground track, that doesn't look like a 60 degree intercept.   What were the winds doing?   That could kind of explain all of this; if winds at your altitude were strong from the SE that would have pushed you across final before they were ready for you  and could explain why they gave you such a sharp intercept angle.

Just took a piece of paper and folded it to 45 degrees, and that almost exactly matches up with the intercept angle on your screenshot, not 60 degrees.

 

There is no question in my mind that the controllers messed up.   They gave you an intercept that didn't work.   I'm assuming that you didn't take like 30 seconds to start the turn because if they'd given you that heading 30 seconds earlier it would have worked.

To more gracefully handle situations like this, maybe pay more attention to when you cross final and consider (really: just think about it, not necessarily do it) telling them when you've flown through the final approach course.  "Philly Approach, Mooney 12345 passing through final approach course."    But you did say that particular controller had 'attitude'.   So that might hurt more than help.  But also that mental cue might help you recognize sooner that the heading they gave you won't get you back to the track you want to fly.