AARP Aircraft Insurance

[AJ88V]

Ok, pretty much nothing about AARP, only wanted to catch attention and spur discussion on something weighing on my mind.

I turn 66 next month and finally joined AARP even though I won't be retiring for another year.

Aviation is a major part of my retirement plan, and either '88V is getting a whole lot of over-priced avionics installed or I'm upgrading planes.  My worry is insurance.

Right now I'm carrying a hull value of $75K, but that will have to increase significantly with either upgrade above, maybe $150K or even $200K.  Planning to call my broker today, but getting some ominous news reading the 'net.  Things like:

• "I've been told by several people....and a broker......is that after age 68 it's impossible to switch carriers or get first time insurance."
• "Insurance is requiring me to get a 3rd Class Medical instead of Basic Med"

What's your experience?

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, AJ88V said:

Ok, pretty much nothing about AARP, only wanted to catch attention and spur discussion on something weighing on my mind.

I turn 66 next month and finally joined AARP even though I won't be retiring for another year.

Aviation is a major part of my retirement plan, and either '88V is getting a whole lot of over-priced avionics installed or I'm upgrading planes.  My worry is insurance.

Right now I'm carrying a hull value of $75K, but that will have to increase significantly with either upgrade above, maybe $150K or even $200K.  Planning to call my broker today, but getting some ominous news reading the 'net.  Things like:

• "I've been told by several people....and a broker......is that after age 68 it's impossible to switch carriers or get first time insurance."
• "Insurance is requiring me to get a 3rd Class Medical instead of Basic Med"

What's your experience?

I've been friends with my insurance guy since before I bought an airplane (we used to race cars in the same org).   The last time I talked to him about this he said that they actively manage this for people by keeping track of which carriers are best for continuing coverage past a certain age, and switch you over before you pass their last entry date for continued coverage.   So talk to your insurance guy and see if they do something similar, or if they at least have a plan or something that you can leverage.   This stuff is constantly changing as the business landscape changes, so who knows what the situation will be as we all age, but at least that's the feedback I've gotten so far.

Another option is to sort out if/when it might be better to go to liability-only if that makes sense for you.  I figure if push comes to shove that's always an option for me.

 

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, AJ88V said:

I turn 66 next month…’88V is getting a whole lot of over-priced avionics installed or I'm upgrading planes.  My worry is insurance.

Right now I'm carrying a hull value of $75K, but that will have to increase significantly with either upgrade above, maybe $150K or even $200K.  Planning to call my broker today, but getting some ominous news reading the 'net.  

I find it interesting that you are considering insuring the hull for about $100K+ more than any other C on the market (about 2.5 times more than the average and up to $125K more than your current value). 

That must be one heck of an avionics upgrade that you are considering…

I hope that you won’t need to spend any money on an overhaul or prop and don’t want new paint or interior  

You might get a whole lot more for your money by upgrading to someone else’s plane. 

[AJ88V]

24 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

I find it interesting that you are considering insuring the hull for about $100K+ more than any other C on the market (about 2.5 times more than the average and up to $125K more than your current value). 

That must be one heck of an avionics upgrade that you are considering…

I hope that you won’t need to spend any money on an overhaul or prop and don’t want new paint or interior  

You might get a whole lot more for your money by upgrading to someone else’s plane. 

I've owned my plane for almost 30 years, low TSMOH, low prop since new, and ok paint (2008?).  Since the plane is owned outright, $50K-ish of avionics would still put me in the low $100K region.  The higher numbers are if I jump to another plane instead.  So, buy the old gal some flashy bling, or divorce to get a hot Slovakian model?

As for @EricJ's comments, my hangar neighbor is maybe 10 years younger than me.  Says he has 5 planes (I believe him), but he mostly flies the Fuji KM2 (T38-adaptation) that's in the hangar next door.  He says he can only afford the insurance with very low hull values on them.  I guess I could risk the loss of the aircraft in the future if insurance jumps through the roof.

[Pinecone]

I would contact @Parker_Woodruff

What I recall of what he has said is that changing or new policy on retract after 70 is hard to do.  So now is a good time to change to a carrier that WILL cover you after 70.

[Parker_Woodruff]

We've got a strategy that has worked for many pilots.  Since no one can perfectly predict the future, we also design our strategy around a couple "bail out" options that should be available around age 74/75.  But we need a policy in force with an effective date at the pilots' age of 69 or earlier.  Sometimes we can make 70-72 work on the 4 cylinder Mooneys.

 

[MikeOH]

On 1/9/2025 at 10:47 AM, AJ88V said:

....but he mostly flies the Fuji KM2 (T38-adaptation) that's in the hangar next door.

Don't know much about the insurance situation but I'm pretty certain the KM-2 is no T-38 adaptation

 

 

[AJ88V]

55 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Don't know much about the insurance situation but I'm pretty certain the KM-2 is no T-38 adaptation

Ooooppppppssss!  T34 adaptation.

Both are very cool airplanes!

[MB65E]

I was really hoping for a cool T38 import derivative! 
-Matt

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, AJ88V said:

Ooooppppppssss!  T34 adaptation.

Both are very cool airplanes!

They are!   I love the KM2s.   A T-34 or a KM-2 or something similar would be a fun airplane to have.

[AJ88V]

Well, I totally botched my neighbor's airplane.  It's a Fuji LM-1 Nikko.  This is a four-seat airplane with yokes instead of sticks. But very military in its build and very cool.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuji_LM-1_Nikko

 

[AJ88V]

Getting back on track, I spoke with my insurance agent (whom I've used for decades) and the news was pretty consistent with @Parker_Woodruff's comments above.

It sounds like I'll be ok with my current insurer (going on for maybe 15 years?), but if I want to change insurers, I'd better do it soon.

I posed two scenarios - massive avionics upgrade or purchase of a different airplane (Navion Rangemaster ) to see if it was even worth considering.  No problem with the Mooney upgrade, but the Navion was a problem without an IFR rating.  It sounded like a Mooney-model upgrade would likely be ok, but my broker didn't inquire about that specifically. (there are a lot of great Mooney J, K, and later planes available that are definite upgrade candidates!)

The IFR rating is planned for this year, but having a plane without a modern IFR setup is major stumbling block.  Working on it.

[Pinecone]

18 hours ago, MB65E said:

I was really hoping for a cool T38 import derivative! 
-Matt

Except for the cost of flying it.

[Hank]

21 hours ago, EricJ said:

They are!   I love the KM2s.   A T-34 or a KM-2 or something similar would be a fun airplane to have.

 

3 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Except for the cost of flying it.

Yep, my thoughts exactly!

[MB65E]

8 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Except for the cost of flying it.

Flying it is cheap compared to the ejection seats. 
-Matt

[AJ88V]

Back on topic...  I grab an old AOPA magazine (May 2024) to read in the gym and, lo and behold, find this gem by Kollin Stagnito:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2024/may/pilot/insurance-tell-your-story

also this on liability-only insurance

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2024/august/14/new-liability-only-insurance-for-senior-pilots

[A64Pilot]

Issue as I see it for any Mooney if insured for less than $100K give or take is that if God forbid you gear up, you may well lose the aircraft.

Now I’m not sure about the 100K number it’s a guess, but say if you’re insured for 75, I bet you’re getting a check for 75 and them hauling your airplane away on a truck.. Reason is say they could fix it for 65, they will be out less money if they give you 75 and sell the airplane at Auction than if they fixed it for 65.

Those are made up numbers because I don’t have real ones, but you get the point. I’m currently 100 but most likely will go to 125 myself just for that reason, it’s simply that things cost more than even a few years ago.

Edited Friday at 12:42 AM by A64Pilot

[aviatoreb]

I read that insurance gets much more difficult after a certain age - can someone state a number?  How old is that specifically when things get harder to find insurance.

[Hank]

28 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I read that insurance gets much more difficult after a certain age - can someone state a number?  How old is that specifically when things get harder to find insurance.

Last I heard, it was 70. But @Parker_Woodruff can give us the official word.

[IvanP]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Issue as I see it for any Mooney if insured for less than $100K give or take is that if God forbid you gear up, you may well lose the aircraft.

Now I’m not sure about the 100K number it’s a guess, but say if you’re insured for 75, I bet you’re getting a check for 75 and them hauling your airplane away on a truck.. Reason is say they could fix it for 65, they will be out less money if they give you 75 and sell the airplane at Auction than if they fixed it for 65.

Those are made up numbers because I don’t have real ones, but you get the point. I’m currently 100 but most likely will go to 125 myself just for that reason, it’s simply that things cost more than even a few years ago.

I can attest to that from personal experience. Had a gear collapse and prop strike on a 70 E model almost 3 years ago. Plane was insured for 75k hull value, mid life engine with somewhat decent avionics (nothing to brag about). Insurance totalled it and sold at auction to salvage company who then sold it on e-Bay after stripping it of all avionics. It was fixable - the gentleman who bought it (A&P) did some initial repairs in my hangar and then flew it to his home field to finsh. Took him few months to finish and get her back in the air as he was doing the work himself in spare time. I think he got a good deal from the salvage company.

The upside of this was that I got to go and buy another plane after adding siginficant amount to the insurance proceeds. Of course, my insurance premium trippled form what it was before, accounting for the claim and higher hull value of the new plane. 

[DonMuncy]

14 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I read that insurance gets much more difficult after a certain age - can someone state a number?  How old is that specifically when things get harder to find insurance.

I actually did pretty well until about 83. Now that I am 86, it is impossible.

[Parker_Woodruff]

14 hours ago, Hank said:

Last I heard, it was 70. But @Parker_Woodruff can give us the official word.

Depends on the plane.  I recently quoted insurance for a prospective purchase Cessna 340 to a very active pilot in his mid-70s at very good rates.

Below $250K Hull there are generally insurance options (sometimes, but not always, good quality insurance policies) for almost any mass-produced piston single for pilots prior to age 80.  Recent pilot hours are helpful to the cause (50+ in previous 12 months is good, more is better).

The insurance market is softening.  Underwriting seems to soften first, followed by rate.

In a claim-inflationary environment, flat rates are effectively rate decreases.

[aviatoreb]

11 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

I actually did pretty well until about 83. Now that I am 86, it is impossible.

Are you still flying?

[aviatoreb]

11 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Depends on the plane.  I recently quoted insurance for a prospective purchase Cessna 340 to a very active pilot in his mid-70s at very good rates.

Below $250K Hull there are generally insurance options (sometimes, but not always, good quality insurance policies) for almost any mass-produced piston single for pilots prior to age 80.  Recent pilot hours are helpful to the cause (50+ in previous 12 months is good, more is better).

The insurance market is softening.  Underwriting seems to soften first, followed by rate.

In a claim-inflationary environment, flat rates are effectively rate decreases.

And what happens after 80?

[DonMuncy]

31 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Are you still flying?

Yes, but I am self insured.