Has the Mooney Caravan abandoned Mooneyspace?

[Rick Junkin]

Zero posts here this year about anything regarding the Caravan's preparations for and activities at KOSH. 

Just wondering.

[PeteMc]

Doesn't look like there has been that much activity at all in recent years.

 

[hammdo]

Could be, looks like they did OSH this year:

https://www.mooneycaravan.com/web/Mooney/Default.asp

[EricJ]

There was a fair amount of pushback from here regarding the midair a few years ago.    I don't think they've been back much since then.

[PeteMc]

I've done some basic formation flying with another friend and a mega hour CFII (ATP, bla, bla, bla) guy doing the teaching.  And I think I got pretty good at it.  However...  I would NEVER join any kind of large formation flying group going into OSH (or anywhere else). 

Sorry, I know a lot of guys get excited about it and the group doing it thinks they're doing the needed training and are covering their bases.....  But with that many GA pilots of varying skills, the potential for something happening is VERY high.  I'm somewhere around 2,600 hours and I still don't think I have the skills to partake in something like that.  I'm not a military pilot and I don't fly formation mega hours a year. 

Just trying to fly into OSH single file and getting instructions causes many a pilot to blow it.  Then you put them in a situation where they may not be able to turn left, right or either way.

 

 

Edited August 5 by PeteMc

[Pinecone]

The mass arrivals are coordinated with OSH controllers.  They normally give them the N/S runway without any other traffic.  So it is less mixing it up than a single ship arrival.

I know they did it this year, and they had formation clinics.  A guy a few hangars down did it this year and last year and did a formation clinic before each one.

[KSMooniac]

On 8/4/2024 at 7:50 PM, PeteMc said:

Just trying to fly into OSH single file and getting instructions causes many a pilot to blow it.  Then you put them in a situation where they may not be able to turn left, right or either way.

 

This is absolutely not the case for the Caravan arrival.  Perhaps next year you might consider joining a weekend training clinic and seeing for yourself?  You might end up having a lot of fun learning some new skills and making some new friends, and maybe even see how it really makes for a much better OSH arrival versus Fisk in a single ship with converging traffic, line-jumpers, and people that don't follow the NOTAM.   Not to mention if you have to go into the chaotic holds if the field closes...

[Marc_B]

There were 52 Mooneys in the mass arrival this year.  It was a very smoothly done arrival by all and we had great weather! I've flown in the Caravan the past 3 years and have only seen professionalism and proficiency.  Never have felt unsafe or uncomfortable at any time in the Mooney or Beech clinics or at the Caravan.  It's an awesome way to spend Osh, meet other Mooney pilots and their familes, and explore the amazing craziness that is EAA Airventure!

I joined MooneySpace shortly after the issues in 2019 (didn't purchase my Mooney until 2021).  I think there was a few vocal MS posters that were very openly critical and at times provacative to some of the long term contributors here.  I know it frustrated several of the guys I fly with to have criticism directed at them just because they were openly fans of formation flying and/or were a part of the Caravan.  The unfortunate effect is that MS lost several amazing Mooney contributors in that process.  Don't think they'll be back, sadly.  But in my experience, formation flying has increased my proficiency, increased my flight discipline, improved my stick and rudder skills, and I've met many good friends in the process. 

...and regarding Caravan vs Fisk arrival...no question the Mooney Caravan all day everyday and definitely on Saturday!

DISCLAIMER:  I am not on the Mooney Caravan board or any administrative role.  But I've flown in the Caravan as a wing for the past 3 years and have attended formation clinics.  The comments above are mine and reflect my personal impression.

[donkaye]

I think the Mooney Caravan is one of the most professionally run, most organized and safety conscious groups I have had the privilege of flying with.  I've flown into Oshkosh with them a number of times.  No one is permitted to participate without training.  My main reason for not flying the Caravan the past few years has to do with my weekly logistics, the fact that I don't want to taxi on grass, and I want my airplane hangared for the week.  As such, I land in Madison, rent a car for the week, and drive through some beautiful country for an hour and fifteen minutes on my way to Oshkosh.

[exM20K]

2 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I think the Mooney Caravan is one of the most professionally run, most organized and safety conscious groups I have had the privilege of flying with.  I've flown into Oshkosh with them a number of times.  No one is permitted to participate without training.  My main reason for not flying the Caravan the past few years has to do with my weekly logistics, the fact that I don't want to taxi on grass, and I want my airplane hangared for the week.  As such, I land in Madison, rent a car for the week, and drive through some beautiful country for an hour and fifteen minutes on my way to Oshkosh.

I'm in the same boat.  I've zero interest in taxiing on the grass, even if it starts out dry (it may not end that way).

I flew in the second caravan, and it was the most tense flying i've ever done. There was no training requirement, just a flight profile to fly.  The trouble is that, unlike the bonanza or cirrus fleet, there is a wide spectrum of performance among our planes.  My 231 was positioned behind a M20C which was well-equipped for a week of camping for 3.  This pilot was unable to fly the profile, so now I have to slow down my climb or spread out to the side, and I wasn't the only one contributing to this goat rodeo. 

Like many potentially unsafe aviation activities, this one seems to have been improved with what always seems to work: training.  Pilots must be able to fly the profile loaded for an oshkosh stay if this is to be done safely, and I assume that part of the formation training requires demonstrating this basic airmanship..  It appears now to fly in 2- or 3 ship elements rather than elongated echelon lineup I got to enjoy.  I don't know if they segregate the planes by type now - one shouldn't have to if all keep the profile.

But even formalized training/checkout didn't prevent the near disastrous airborne fender-bender a few years back.  This thing that we do can be dangerous.

I'd not hesitate to fly with the caravan as currently executed, and It does feel to me like a safer environment that what the Fisk *can* become when saturated. But having the airplane exposed to

• Taxiing on grass
• Severe Weather
• Poorly secured aircraft tumbling into mine (and me and my tent) in the event of severe weather (I got to experience this at S&F from the Diamond booth once)
• Trying to extract my near 2500# empty weight plane from a week's worth of settling into soft ground ,

when, until I sold it this year, I had a motorhome to camp in style and a 2.5 hour drive.  I miss the comradery of camping on the N40 especially w/ fellow mooney pilots very much, though. 

It would be nice to have some content put up here from Caravan participants. Vicarious enjoyment of the experience is better than nothing during years like this when I can't get up there. Is there still a BBQ? On a couple of occasions, I made it over from Camp Scholler for that, which was nice.

-dan

[KSMooniac]

1 hour ago, exM20K said:

 

Like many potentially unsafe aviation activities, this one seems to have been improved with what always seems to work: training.  Pilots must be able to fly the profile loaded for an oshkosh stay if this is to be done safely, and I assume that part of the formation training requires demonstrating this basic airmanship..  It appears now to fly in 2- or 3 ship elements rather than elongated echelon lineup I got to enjoy.  I don't know if they segregate the planes by type now - one shouldn't have to if all keep the profile.

But even formalized training/checkout didn't prevent the near disastrous airborne fender-bender a few years back.  This thing that we do can be dangerous.

Procedures were improved after the previous incident... prior to that, participants did not have to demonstrate proficiency every year at a Caravan clinic, or equivalent, and an experienced Mooney owner & pilot was "vouched for" and allowed to join the group in Madison.  Bottom line, he screwed up but fortunately nobody was hurt.  After a thorough investigation, the rules for participation were changed for the better.  Clinics were standardized, and I think overall the level of professionalism and thus safety has increased tremendously.  Can something still happen, sure, but I would suggest the chances are much higher on the Fisk arrival or in the non-standard OSH VFR patterns than on the modern Caravan arrival.  I think the Clinics will train to proficiency or weed-out those that are incapable of the airmanship required, or don't have the right attitude to do this safely before they get to Madison.  I'd rather arrive with 50+ of my trained and proficient colleagues AND with the airport closed for our arrival than get in the random conga line and have line-jumpers, un-planned chaotic holds, very high performance base-to-final turns, runway incursions, etc.  

The basic element is a 3-ship in fingertip formation, and those are repeated down the line for as many as it takes, so no sloppy echelon or loose gaggle like the early days.  Generally the elements are grouped with folks that have flown together in their own regions/clinics, but nowadays since the training is standardized, pretty much anyone can plug-in and be safe.  The performance profile accommodates C's and G's with OSH loads, or TN's.  It works.

I won't fault anyone for their desire to keep their pride and joy away from the risks associated with taxiing and camping at OSH.  We all know there have been prop strikes, thunderstorms and hail, etc. up there throughout the years.  With some coordination, it might be possible to fly the Caravan arrival, and perhaps break-out for pre-arranged hard surface or hangar parking on the field, or simply taxi back and depart for FLD or elsewhere if you want to experience the camaraderie but minimize the risk once at OSH.  So far I've been fortunate with my taxiing & camping experience, but I have left earlier than planned more than once to avoid predicted weather... For me, the risk is well worth the fun having a base camp full of Mooney people and planes in the N40.  It makes the OSH experience 2x the fun.

[MooneyMitch]

It is wonderful to have some postings again in the Caravan topic!  

[PeteMc]

7 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

It is wonderful to have some postings again in the Caravan topic!

Still love the car!  Asked my friend if he had any pics of his T-Bird....  He said back then he never thought about it.  It was an incredible car!! 

[Jetpilot86]

The owner of GA Jet Services at KCXO apparently is one of the Caravan organizers. He introduced himself to me on my last stop there in June and inquired if I was going to OSH and was interested in the Caravan.

 

HTH

[Marc_B]

On 8/6/2024 at 10:10 AM, exM20K said:

• Taxiing on grass
• Severe Weather
• Poorly secured aircraft tumbling into mine (and me and my tent) in the event of severe weather (I got to experience this at S&F from the Diamond booth once)
• Trying to extract my near 2500# empty weight plane from a week's worth of settling into soft ground
• Is there still a BBQ?

Weather/taxiing on grass during Osh (for any participant) could be a concern as there is typically weather that rolls through at some point every year.  2022/2023 had some crazy rain storms that passed through Saturday night/Sunday after the Mooney Caravan arrived.  We found that quality outdoor tents were a nonissue, but the el cheapo Walmart special tents got turned into to flattened bath tubs!  That year the Caravan vehicles and board went to the local outdoor store and picked up all the tents they had for the unfortunate fishies.  This year rain rolled through and I think everyone was unscathed.  It never lasts long, and the HUGE Caravan circus tent is a great place to congregate, drink a cold one, and chat with your fellow Mooney pilots as the bugs get washed off your wings.  The taxi marshallers do a good job of placing cones on low spots and the grounds dry out pretty quickly as the remaining days are typically SUNNY.  I still taxi decently slow/carefully, yoke pulled back to my chest, and they do a great job of rolling the grass smooth for the show.  The three times I've been at Osh, I had no problem taxiing where I was being directed.  We did have a pilot this year peel off after landing and go to general aviation parking area; he wasn't staying/camping at Osh but wanted to come with the Caravan.  So it is possible to park somewhere else...although I think it's WAY more fun to camp beside your Mooney!

Securing Aircraft: This is probably one of the benefits of the Caravan.  You're surrounded by mass arrivals and I think that most mass arrivals are ahead of the curve in terms of Osh camping!  These are the aircraft that usually have LED solar lights, cutting boards under the wheels, the Claw type tie downs, canopy covers, camp seating, etc.  Given that most of the Caravan are seasoned vets, you can be sure none of the aircraft around you are going anywhere for most weather that would be coming through.  I've found that the Claw is a great tiedown to use, works well, and easy to place and remove.

Leaving Osh:  Most pilots bring wooden or plastic cutting boards for the wheels; it distributes the weight over a larger footprint to keep from sinking into the grass as much.  I picked up 3 cutting boards from Sam's that I reuse every year.  Still, it takes more than just you to pull your aircraft out, but fortunately you have a whole group of Mooney friends to help make it easy!

Food:  The caravan always plans a group dinner every year under the tent.  There are also several group meals that get planned in Madison as well as at Osh.  Breakfasts are included Sunday - Wednesday under the tent each morning (part of the small Caravan registration fee).  Lunches you are on your own.  This year there were several that brought coleman stoves and we cooked out steaks or hotdogs.  Food is definitely something that seems to get refined every year!

On 8/6/2024 at 11:31 AM, KSMooniac said:

I think the Clinics will train to proficiency or weed-out those that are incapable of the airmanship required, or don't have the right attitude to do this safely before they get to Madison

At the clinic I attended there was one pilot who had some issues with feeling comfortable with engine management and trusting that his engine settings were fine (they were).  But after a couple sorties with a seasoned safety pilot in the right seat he wasn't quite ready...and he wasn't signed off.  But despite that there was never a problem with safety of flight, and that pilot has the opportunity to continue to learn and attend a future clinic to continue training.  Hopefully as he improves, formation flight will gel and he'll join us.  But if not, we still had a great time meeting another Mooney pilot and I'm sure he learned a lot in the process.  Sometimes Formation flight may not be for you, but you don't know that till you try.  If at any time a pilot feels unsafe, they can always call knock it off...for any reason.  This is ingrained into the training both for your safety and the safety of others.  BTW, we also have had a Beech pilot that joined that didn't get signed off.  So it's not a gimme to get approved to fly in the Caravan.

And if not for formation flying...how else are you supposed to get cool pictures!!

 

[BlueSky247]

@Marc_B Thank you for taking the time to share all that. Very cool and informative. 

[Becca]

There’s a lyric “I’m the problem, it’s me.”  Indeed, some of us here - including me - were critical of the Caravan’s lack of transparency and incomplete public explanations (“you’ll have to come to a clinic and find out”) after their 2019 midair.  Not going to rehash my thoughts, you can find the old threads, including the wrap up one after their presentation at Oshkosh a couple years after the incident.

 It seems to me direction went out or there was universal consensus in the Caravan to no longer discuss the Caravan here (I had a very weird interaction with a Caravan leader who insisted I come back here and report everything I heard at their presentation here on MS - as if he couldn’t do so himself?)

It is a shame, there used to be MS/caravan gatherings at osh for those of us unable to participate in the caravan for whatever reasons. If they are still happening, I don’t know, but I haven’t been invited to one.

I am happy the caravan continues to thrive, formation flying is fun and camaraderie is great for the community. But the data doesn’t support the mass arrivals claims that they are a safer method of Oshkosh arrival than Fisk.

Edited August 25 by Becca

[Marc_B]

@Becca I feel there is a risk flying in Fisk.  Flying my aircraft into Osh with the Caravan the last three years, I feel that was WAY less risk and difficulty.  Of course as with most things in life you can choose your risk tolerance and flying profiles and so it sounds like you've decided the Caravan isn't for you and that is 100% okay.

The Mooney Caravan tent has been set up in the same location for the past 3 years, and there has been a Mooney Forum/presentation at Osh (I think they usually do it on Tuesday?) so you can check the day to day lecture schedule.  Anyone can also check the Mooney Caravan website for schedule and details.  A last option is that anyone could also fly into MSN Madison on their way independently up to Osh to meet some of the Caravan pilots.  I haven't been aware of any Mooneyspace get togethers at Osh since I joined. 

[Becca]

2 hours ago, Marc_B said:

@Becca I feel there is a risk flying in Fisk.  Flying my aircraft into Osh with the Caravan the last three years, I feel that was WAY less risk and difficulty.  Of course as with most things in life you can choose your risk tolerance and flying profiles and so it sounds like you've decided the Caravan isn't for you and that is 100% okay.

The Mooney Caravan tent has been set up in the same location for the past 3 years, and there has been a Mooney Forum/presentation at Osh (I think they usually do it on Tuesday?) so you can check the day to day lecture schedule.  Anyone can also check the Mooney Caravan website for schedule and details.  A last option is that anyone could also fly into MSN Madison on their way independently up to Osh to meet some of the Caravan pilots.  I haven't been aware of any Mooneyspace get togethers at Osh since I joined. 

Obviously both arrivals have risks and it’s just a trade.  I fly the Air Venture Cup race with its own risks.  I love formation flying, it’s fun, we always intended on flying the Caravan but logistics prevented it. But the response to the midair turned me off of wanting to try - I know people inside the mass arrivals are satisfied with the safety culture but based on what they’ve chosen to share publicly it isn’t for me. Plus given the choice of pre-Oshkosh events, I would rather do the air race anyway

My conclusion about comparative safety is based on data - though I have 15 safe years over Fisk, I’ve never done the actual mass arrival training so cannot compare based on personal experience.  All I know is the rate of midairs in mass arrivals (1 in 2019, maybe something else happened with Cessnas but not a midair?) is higher than the rate at Fisk (last one was 2009?) especially considering the volume of traffic over Fisk exceeds mass arrivals by an order of magnitude.
 

I think the last MS get together with the Caravan I attended was 2019 - we ordered pizza and had a great time. Many of us were also invited to join the Caravan bbq too.  It also used to be if you timed your regular arrival near to the caravan scheduled time you’d be parked in the N40 within a few rows of the caravan. But lately the N40 has been reserving so much special parking for all the mass arrivals, single arrivals that arrive around the same time get sent really far away - if you want parking as close as the mass arrivals get you really have to get in on Thursday or show up midweek and get a spot when they are filling holes.  Good parking is a definite good reason to do the mass arrivals these days.  I would love to see the get together come back.

Edited August 25 by Becca

[Marc_B]

FWIW, I think the accident in 2019 is an outlier and there are no longer any inflight configuration changes...we brief the flight and everyone flies the brief.  But we all make our own decisions for ourselves and I'm not trying to convince someone who doesn't want to fly to Osh or in the Caravan to join.

As an aside, I work in the ER and see horrible car accidents every shift.  The risk going down the highway is rife with WAY more mid'grounds!   I'll take flying in the Caravan beside my squadron mate any day!

[Ned Gravel]

2 hours ago, Becca said:

Obviously both arrivals have risks and it’s just a trade. 

Sorry Becca:  Disagree.  

Fisk arrival scares the living BeeGees out of me. Did it in 2011 and found too many pilots not trained to fly in shared airspace.   Not trained  Not looking.  Not listening. 

In the Caravan, all my element teammates, regardless of which one of us was element lead, knew how to fly with others in relatively close proximity.  Safest method for me to fly into Airventure. Did it 8 times.  If ever I go back, it will be with the Caravan.

Flanders. 

[Skates97]

I enjoy formation flying and have done it with friends in their Mooneys, a friend in his Harmon Rocket (he was powered back ) and a friend in his Murphy Moose. All of it was fun. As with @Becca I was looking forward to one day flying the Caravan and even stopped at one of their trainings in NC on our cross country trip to meet Bob Belville and others and have dinner with them, but I was turned off by the events following their incident. The final nail in the coffin was when one of the pilot's involved took the time to track down my cell number and call me. For 45 minutes he told me why I had no idea what I was talking about, I knew nothing of formation flying, and should stop making comments online. That was just one individual, and I know many others who fly in the Caravan and he is not representative of the group, but it was a turn off.

I've flown Fisk twice, once in 2021 and once in 2023 and loved both times. Yes, you need to be able to change what you are doing according to what the Tower needs, but all pilots should be able to make adjustments even in the pattern. I 2021 I was on short final when they changed the dot I was landing on and I had to add power and land further down the runway, no big deal. In 2023 they had me turn base right at a flight of Yaks on a straight in and I got to come in and land behind them which was awesome. Both times they had me extend my downwind out over the lake, a departure from the standard pattern in the NOTAM. I was parked in the S40 both years just past the store and showers at the turn in the road and loved the quiet out there.

I'm glad for the changes that the Caravan implemented, whatever those were specifically. I'm glad they have their training regimen and offer that way for pilots who are interested to get to Osh. From everything I've seen and heard it sounds like the 2019 incident was an outlier. I think the Caravan benefits the Mooney community as a whole, builds camaraderie, and helps create more awareness in the GA community of how amazing our planes are which are all good things. I hope they continue and have great success.

[Marc_B]

A lot can happen in 5 years and a bad event can be a catalyst towards good change. Sorry y'all have a bad impression of the Caravan. My experience has been drastically different. Camaraderie, proficiency, and fun.  I’ve never felt unsafe with formation flying and the Caravan flight profile is the most basic formation flying that I typically fly. Three-ship Vic formation with half in route formation (2-3ship widths laterally).

Sounds like the roots of the mass arrivals were informal gaggles or groupings of aircraft that may not have the same briefing or skills. Fortunately we’re light years past that. I don’t want to discount your experiences but my experience 2022/2023/2024 has been dramatically different.

To each his own and may we all have lots of safe, fun flying adventures!

Marc. 

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, Marc_B said:

A lot can happen in 5 years and a bad event can be a catalyst towards good change. Sorry y'all have a bad impression of the Caravan. My experience has been drastically different. Camaraderie, proficiency, and fun.  I’ve never felt unsafe with formation flying and the Caravan flight profile is the most basic formation flying that I typically fly. Three-ship Vic formation with half in route formation (2-3ship widths laterally).

Sounds like the roots of the mass arrivals were informal gaggles or groupings of aircraft that may not have the same briefing or skills. Fortunately we’re light years past that. I don’t want to discount your experiences but my experience 2022/2023/2024 has been dramatically different.

To each his own and may we all have lots of safe, fun flying adventures!

Marc. 

That is what one would hope would occur.

But it seems that they have played turtle and hiding in their shell rather than coming online and letting people know how they have grown and changed from the incident.

I am unlikely to go to Oshkosh (can't take the heat, humidity and the walking), but if I did, I would check out one of the formation clinics and see what I think.   I think I have a pretty good background to assess the program.

 

[Marc_B]

3 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

I would check out one of the formation clinics and see what I think.   I think I have a pretty good background to assess the program.

Find a one and come join a clinic regardless.  Probably would be a fun way to spend a weekend!  Plus the clinics are always looking for more safety pilots!!