Fess up, you Deltahawk followers

[BlueSky247]

I was admiring their cutaway engine they had on display and made a crack about whether Mooney was on their future STC list. “You are the fourth person that has asked.”  
 

And the official answer is it would be very unlikely since Mooney are “out of business”. 

[Paul Thomas]

I don't know how they still are in business. While they have been making significant progress recently,  they have been at it for SO long. Someone has a lot of faith to keep footing the bill. I would love to see new engine choices but the price point is just unrealistic; last I looked it was over 100k firewall forward for an experimental. I wonder how much is that cost is related to what the engine should cost vs. a failure to manage the development of the engine. I wish them well but I fear that they will fail and make it that much more difficult for the next person.

 

Edited July 28 by Paul Thomas

[BlueSky247]

I agree the price is high for early adopters. Hope they pull it off. 
 

I saw a roi projection somewhere based on the price delta of JetA. It also seems to me they may be able to achieve longer TBO’s as more data and iterations happen. 

[toto]

1 hour ago, Paul Thomas said:

last I looked with were over 100k firewall forward for an experimental

The last price estimate I saw (about a year ago) was 90k installed for a certified aircraft. That’s a lot of money, but it’s not outside the realm of reasonable for a brand-new engine.. and of course you could sell your existing engine to recoup part of it.

[toto]

Checked the Deltahawk website… my numbers are old, and it’s worse than I thought.. 110k for the package, without installation. 

[1980Mooney]

3 minutes ago, toto said:

The last price estimate I saw (about a year ago) was 90k installed for a certified aircraft. That’s a lot of money, but it’s not outside the realm of reasonable for a brand-new engine.. and of course you could sell your existing engine to recoup part of it.

I think it delusional to believe that they can provide a firewall forward conversion including complete engine w/ accessories, engine frame, new cowling, prop, governor, instrument changes, fuel metering and tank level recalibration, probably a new electric fuel pump all certified for $90K.  Especially with all the aviation related increases I doubt a conversion can even be done for $100K

[1980Mooney]

6 minutes ago, toto said:

Checked the Deltahawk website… my numbers are old, and it’s worse than I thought.. 110k for the package, without installation. 

That's more like it.  "Targeting" $110K for the 180 HP model.

[1980Mooney]

And don't forget that it will require a rather radical new cowling.  I don't see that mentioned.  I bet a complete new cowling including painting to match your plane adds easily $10K  - maybe $15K.

 

[GeeBee]

In some areas of the world if you want to fly the airplane, you may not have a choice. It is no coincidence that Continental is doing their first "certified package" on the Cessna 206 as it is the most common third world single engine recip and they are talking 300K for a CD-300 conversion. As long as Avgas is easily available here, it makes no real economic sense for a conversion but we are not the whole world.

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/continental-announces-diesel-for-the-206/

Equally so it looks like they inked their first OEM deal for the VulcanAir P-68 which looks to be another favorite for third world operations.

https://www.avweb.com/air-shows-events/airventure/deltahawk-jet-fuel-burning-engines-to-power-vulcanair-aircraft/

I agree DHK must have some deep pockets, but they seem disciplined in finances,  development and engineering. I see great things happening and I wish them every success.

[BlueSky247]

This engine is one of the reasons I’ve decided to add the multi rating. Besides the velocity twin, they have a program targetting the seneca. 

[Marc_B]

Even if you're not interested in Deltahawk, this is an interesting watch.  I think they are focusing on 4 cylinder engines currently; TBD when a six cylinder would be released and I think it would take a lot of time and money to retrofit to a Mooney.  Certainly would be fascinating to see the end result and final cost.

 

[Marc_B]

18 hours ago, BlueSky247 said:

And the official answer is it would be very unlikely since Mooney are “out of business”. 

I gather that any Deltahawk retrofit would require substantial engineering, fitting, and manufacturer of parts.  So this would have to be subsidized either by the owner, the aircraft manufacturer, or by Deltahawk.  Probably the aircraft manufacturer is poised to do this the most efficiently, but likely this would require an owner to do it in the Mooney application.

[BlueSky247]

The rep I spoke to said they would be relying on engineering support from the airframe mfgr. 
 

TBH though, if they are doing them by aircraft popularity, we would be way down the list. I imagine they’d target the 172’s, PA28’s etc long before us. 

[N9201A]

1 hour ago, BlueSky247 said:

The rep I spoke to said they would be relying on engineering support from the airframe mfgr. 
 

TBH though, if they are doing them by aircraft popularity, we would be way down the list. I imagine they’d target the 172’s, PA28’s etc long before us. 

They had a QRC code to permit you to vote on your airframe at OSH.  Realistically brands P and C crush us in numbers so they'll be first targets as total addressable market is much greater and they are still being produced.  

I have also been watching this and at 380 lbs and up to 230HP this is a very viable package that solves a lot of problems for many people.  Now to get them certified and in production!  I wish them all the best;  were they doing it, I would convert my J to an experimental.  It will perform better than an IO360, does away with 100LL, a longer TBO will almost certainly result, and diesels are much more reliable.  Sadly, the rep I spoke to said they are focusing on OEMs.     

[1980Mooney]

4 hours ago, BlueSky247 said:

The rep I spoke to said they would be relying on engineering support from the airframe mfgr. 
 

TBH though, if they are doing them by aircraft popularity, we would be way down the list. I imagine they’d target the 172’s, PA28’s etc long before us. 

 

2 hours ago, N9201A said:

They had a QRC code to permit you to vote on your airframe at OSH.  Realistically brands P and C crush us in numbers so they'll be first targets as total addressable market is much greater and they are still being produced.  

I have also been watching this and at 380 lbs and up to 230HP this is a very viable package that solves a lot of problems for many people.  Now to get them certified and in production!  I wish them all the best;  were they doing it, I would convert my J to an experimental.  It will perform better than an IO360, does away with 100LL, a longer TBO will almost certainly result, and diesels are much more reliable.  Sadly, the rep I spoke to said they are focusing on OEMs.     

That explains the Mooney comment.  They are not doing them by popularity.  They are doing them by airframe still currently being manufactured.  Look at the Piper Seminole announcement.  DeltaHawk calls it "co-development".  Piper calls it "partners".   That means co-ownership of the STC.

Piper Aircraft and DeltaHawk Engines to Co-Develop STC for PA-44 Seminole - DeltaHawk Power Reimagined

Piper Aircraft Partners with DeltaHawk Engines to Explore Diesel Power for PA-44 Seminole | Piper Aircraft

The minute the airframe manufacturer gets involved in what is a major firewall forward modification then the 18 year GARA liability clock starts ticking again. It's not just "firewall forward" - it involves changes in instrumentation, recalibration of fuel measuring,  weight and balance, changes in handling, changes in flight and emergency procedures, etc.

As a result the airframe manufacturers will not want to screw around with 30-60 year old airframes. 

Likewise DeltaHawk does not want to waste its limited engineering on packaging, designing engine mounts, optimizing cowlings, test flying, modifying POH's etc.  DeltaHawk wants to sell engines.  And they don't want all that other liability of trying to certify a complete package for 30-60 year old airframes.

I think that DeltaHawk ultimately has its sights set on the military UAV market and secondly commercial UAV markets.   The war in Ukraine is changing the entire "air war" calculus at an unprecedented pace.  The success and advances in cheap military UAV's is far beyond anyone's expectation.  You can build 1,000 fairly heavy military UAV's for the cost of one (1) F-35.  You will see military spending shift rapidly to buy 10,000's of inexpensive UAV's  

From Uncrewed Systems Technology Magazine a couple months ago:  "As multi-fuel engines are highly valued among UAV operators, this is the market that DeltaHawk is targeting today". 

Issue 54 Uncrewed Sytems Technology Feb/Mar 2024 uWare uOne UUV l Radio and telemetry l Rheinmetall Canada medevacs l UUVs insight DelltaHawk engine l IMU focus l Skygauge in operation l CES 2024 report l Blueflite l Hypersonic flight (ust-media.com)

Also

Government & Military Applications - DeltaHawk Power Reimagined

Edited July 28 by 1980Mooney

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

I think that DeltaHawk ultimately has its sights set on the military UAV market and secondly commercial UAV markets.   

The bulk of Lycoming's production capacity has been making diesel engines for military UAVs.   This has been true for quite a while, so DeltaHawk would be playing catch-up in that market, too.    They're basically very late for all of the parties, but you can never guess what might play out in the future.    Maybe they'll be able to make a market somewhere.

 

[BlueSky247]

What I want to know is whether this engine in that PA44 keeps it from being such a problem child in the event one engine goes out. 

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, EricJ said:

The bulk of Lycoming's production capacity has been making diesel engines for military UAVs.   This has been true for quite a while, so DeltaHawk would be playing catch-up in that market, too.    They're basically very late for all of the parties, but you can never guess what might play out in the future.    Maybe they'll be able to make a market somewhere.

General Atomics just dumped Lycoming and developed their own HFE 2.0 200 HP diesel engine to replace the Lycoming DEL-120 180 HP (continuous) rated diesel.

https://www.ga.com/ga-asi-completes-durability-test-for-hfe-20-engine

The military Lycoming 4 stroke diesel DEL-120 was indeed an impressive engine that was in production for 11 years.  It replaced the Thielert on the original Gray Eagle. Ten years ago Lycoming said they would consider bringing it to the civilian market if there was commercial interest.  Apparently there has not been any.  I suspect that Lycoming charged a head-spinning stratospheric price that only the Government would pay.  Hence no civilian interest.

Regarding opportunity for DeltaHawk, I believe even in its lowest HP version, it weighs less than the Lycoming with similar specific fuel consuption.  In the Oshkosh video they say that they are taking more weight out of the DeltaHawk.  And they already announced higher HP versions. The DOD was buying the Lycoming DEL-120 for UAV's like the Grey Eagle costing over a ridiculous $20 million each.  Not every country, maybe not even the USA in the future, wants to spend so much per UAV - perhaps quantity, rather than a few more complex models, will be more important like in last past wars.  The DeltaHawk 2 stroke may find a market as a simpler, lighter and more cost effective solution.

Starts at 9:45 min. in the YouTube. 

Just a thought.

Edited July 29 by 1980Mooney

[A64Pilot]

The Military “drone” thing runs costs higher than you might think, years ago the Honeywell TPE-10 engine was put back into production for the Predator B drone (reaper)

So I called them as Thrush had built quite a few -10 powered Crop dusters and still built a few with customer supplied engines. I got a price, surprised me as it was higher than a -60 P&W and very few if any would pay more for a Garret than a Pratt.

Incidentally we supplied the power levers to General Atomics for the Reaper so I have a good idea how many were being built, and it was a number that was much bigger than I thought. I assume they had a power lever for ground maintenance and of course each ground station got one.

[William Munney]

Over $100,000 for a 4 cylinder with 180 HP.  I don’t see how that’s going to work.  They might make some for drones etc…… but you can blow up cheaper Lycomings in drones for……well, cheaper.  I don’t know how many “new” age engine designs have been announced and then failed during my time in aviation but it’s more than a few.  The Walter turbine was great until GE bought them…made a few changes…..and 5X’ed the price.

[1980Mooney]

5 hours ago, William Munney said:

Over $100,000 for a 4 cylinder with 180 HP.  I don’t see how that’s going to work.  They might make some for drones etc…… but you can blow up cheaper Lycomings in drones  

Cheaper Lycoming? Compare new Lycoming vs new DeltaHawk. IO-360 is $99,000 from AirPower but none are in stock. I bet you that the new shipment when it arrives is over $100k. 

https://www.airpowerinc.com/enpl-rt9304

That’s why DeltaHawk is pursuing OEM airframe  manufacturers. And that is why Mooney is “dead” to them. 

[Will.iam]

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/H2Djk7rZQK77Ky4J/?mibextid=UalRPS
 

why go diesel when you can go turbine!!! 
if only i was experimental!

200hp with less than 200lbs weight! Crap might get tail heavy in a mooney. Might have to opt for the twin engine version sick!

 

[BlueSky247]

Gonna need more than the Monroys for that one. 

[Will.iam]

42 minutes ago, BlueSky247 said:

Gonna need more than the Monroys for that one. ,

uh? Burns 12 gal/hour better than an io-550 or about the same as ROP on a tsio-360. So no not going to need more than the monroy tanks. Maybe rewatch the video and take notice of the fuel burn instead of assuming it’s a gas guzzler? Doesn’t matter as we will never be able to put it in a mooney but if i ever build an experimental that’s what’s going in!!!

[BlueSky247]

 

14 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

Maybe rewatch the video

 

You caught me.  I did ass-u-me on the fuel burn. Cool to see people trying new things that aren't an automobile conversion.

 

And I am right there with you on the experimental. It's really cool what some of those guys are doing on those planes.