Why you can’t land a Mooney until it’s ready

[MooneyMitch]

Ah, again, the great value of Mooneyspace!  

[mooneyflyfast]

41 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

Ah, again, the great value of Mooneyspace!  

 

41 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

Ah, again, the great value of Mooneyspace!  

Someone will correct you here if you make dumb uneducated general statements like I did.  But it’s all in fun and we don’t take offense.

[mooneyflyfast]

My previous comment was tongue in cheek.  I’m waiting for information as to how to land my Mooney at 90 kts.

[amillet]

12 minutes ago, mooneyflyfast said:

My previous comment was tongue in cheek.  I’m waiting for information as to how to land my Mooney at 90 kts.

 

[Will.iam]

22 hours ago, Shadrach said:

To my knowledge, I have never scraped the tail on my F model but the tie down ring suggests that someone has.  I have done many short field landings with the yoke hitting  the aft limit right at touchdown. Is it possible that it has scraped without being audible/noticeable in the cockpit?

We had a tail strike in a 767 that surprisingly nobody in the back heard or felt, the pilots did not know nor did the tower see but we found it on post flight inspection. So yes very easily you can have a tailstrike and not know it. Also crews have had engine pod strikes that were found out only through post flight inspection or tower reporting sparks. 

[mooneyflyfast]

The statement was that you could land your “Mooney as fast as 90 kts on the runway” 90 kts on approach is a lot different from “on the runway” at 90 kts.” You can fly you approach at any speed as long as you have enough runway. And it is a lot easier to get the nose up with no flaps.

[Shadrach]

11 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Aerobraking has little effect above 100 knots.  And it works better with swept wings which have massive drag with very little lift when over rotated

I think you meant under 100kts. And while it may not be as effective as with a swept wing, I am not sure that “little effect” is the correct term. 

[PT20J]

Wings are swept for high speed characteristics. Someone needs to explain to me why they create more aerodynamic braking at low speed. Lots of stuff I don’t know, so I’m eager to learn. (BTW, Mooney wing is swept forward). 

[Pinecone]

Yes, fixed it

[Pinecone]

19 hours ago, PT20J said:

Wings are swept for high speed characteristics. Someone needs to explain to me why they create more aerodynamic braking at low speed. Lots of stuff I don’t know, so I’m eager to learn. (BTW, Mooney wing is swept forward). 

I am trying recall the training from over 40 years ago.  IIRC is had to do with max performance to stall area.  Swept wings are flown into the buffet for max performance.  Straight wings are flown to just before the buffet.

I may also be due to swept wings landing at higher speeds.  Most straight wings are down near 100 knots

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

I am trying recall the training from over 40 years ago.  IIRC is had to do with max performance to stall area.  Swept wings are flown into the buffet for max performance.  Straight wings are flown to just before the buffet.

I may also be due to swept wings landing at higher speeds.  Most straight wings are down near 100 knots

Could it be as simple as the sweep angle relative to the roll axis generates higher parasitic drag and higher AOA for a given pitch attitude? It’s pretty clear that at high AOAs a swept wing has more wing area (especially near the tips) at a higher AOA than a straight wing that’s perpendicular to the roll axis.

 

 

[Shadrach]

On 7/21/2024 at 6:39 PM, mooneyflyfast said:

The statement was that you could land your “Mooney as fast as 90 kts on the runway” 90 kts on approach is a lot different from “on the runway” at 90 kts.” You can fly you approach at any speed as long as you have enough runway. And it is a lot easier to get the nose up with no flaps.

I've never had a reason to do it, but I've little doubt that I could. next time you fly, trim for 90kias , flaps up and gear down. I think you'll find that the pitch attitude for level flight will be sufficiently greater than level pitch thus making a mains first touch down entirely possible, even if not a good idea...

[N201MKTurbo]

How do you plan for runway length at 90 KTS. I would be afraid of running out of pavement.

[Shadrach]

13 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

How do you plan for runway length at 90 KTS. I would be afraid of running out of pavement.

I don't plan for it as it's not a good practice.  Nevertheless, I am sure it can be done. 

[exM20K]

28 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

How do you plan for runway length at 90 KTS. I would be afraid of running out of pavement.

I doubt the 1 Knot = 100' of landing roll rule of thumb extends that far, but if so, you're looking at an extra 2000' of runway.

FIKI planes are limited to takeoff flaps only after an icing encounter and minimum airspeed of 130KIAS. Obviously nobody comes over the fence at 130 KIAS, but the partial flaps restriction means I'm adding 15 knots to my over the fence speed, which can get up towards 90 KIAS.  I've done that a bunch, and it's NBD with 4000' of runway.  Example.

I tried to count the stripesafter the thousand foot marker. looks like about 3200' to taxi speed, and that was likely with minimal braking.

-dan

[Will.iam]

On 7/24/2024 at 2:40 PM, Shadrach said:

I don't plan for it as it's not a good practice.  Nevertheless, I am sure it can be done. 

I don’t think so. On takeoff we hold 5 pounds of back yoke pressure why? Because if you don’t the mains start coming off the ground with the nose still on the runway classic wheel barreling that you want to avoid and that is at rotation speed! Let alone 90 kts! Damn i can climb out at 90!  Your AOA at 90 is so small to get down to the runway the nose wheel is going to be lower than the mains. The only way those mains are going to go lower is to raise the nose and you are going to be then climbing. Now if you stuffed an elephant in the cargo compartment that took you way over max gross weight and had an insanely aft cg you might get the mains to touch first but normal cg envelope no way!!!

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, Will.iam said:

I don’t think so. On takeoff we hold 5 pounds of back yoke pressure why? Because if you don’t the mains start coming off the ground with the nose still on the runway classic wheel barreling that you want to avoid and that is at rotation speed! Let alone 90 kts! Damn i can climb out at 90!  Your AOA at 90 is so small to get down to the runway the nose wheel is going to be lower than the mains. The only way those mains are going to go lower is to raise the nose and you are going to be then climbing. Now if you stuffed an elephant in the cargo compartment that took you way over max gross weight and had an insanely aft cg you might get the mains to touch first but normal cg envelope no way!!!

Well let's think about that. If you hold it on the runway it will wheelbarrow. If you hold 5lbs back pressure it will take off maybe around 65 knots. This implies that there is enough elevator control to keep the weight distributed between all three wheels as the airplane accelerates. Since it sits at a positive angle of attack, it will eventually lift off, but it should be possible to hold it on the ground well above normal takeoff speed. 

Thought experiment: How fast was Bob Hoover flying when he did successive one wheel landings with a climb and roll between touchdowns?

[Will.iam]

50 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Well let's think about that. If you hold it on the runway it will wheelbarrow. If you hold 5lbs back pressure it will take off maybe around 65 knots. This implies that there is enough elevator control to keep the weight distributed between all three wheels as the airplane accelerates. Since it sits at a positive angle of attack, it will eventually lift off, but it should be possible to hold it on the ground well above normal takeoff speed. 

Thought experiment: How fast was Bob Hoover flying when he did successive one wheel landings with a climb and roll between touchdowns?

By rolling that dropped one main gear lower than the nose wheel. I could do that in a mooney too. Notice he didn’t do both main gear wheels at the same time. There is just too much excess energy. By the time you are up to 90 kts your mains are either off the ground with the nose wheel still touching or you are flying away from the ground as mooney is already at a positive angle of attack when sitting on all three wheels. Airlines sit at a negative angle of attack that we have to rotate through before liftoff so we can in case of windsheer threat past v1 delay our rotation speed to a faster speed without having the plane takeoff as it sits at a negative aoa thus forcing the wing and body to stay on the ground above flying speed. 

[1980Mooney]

55 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Well let's think about that. If you hold it on the runway it will wheelbarrow. If you hold 5lbs back pressure it will take off maybe around 65 knots. This implies that there is enough elevator control to keep the weight distributed between all three wheels as the airplane accelerates. Since it sits at a positive angle of attack, it will eventually lift off, but it should be possible to hold it on the ground well above normal takeoff speed. 

Thought experiment: How fast was Bob Hoover flying when he did successive one wheel landings with a climb and roll between touchdowns?

Good question.  25 years ago, on a 8,000 ft Towered runway, my original Mooney instructor had me touch the mains down on the numbers holding the nose off and then gently adding a little power and pulling it off into ground effect.  Then followed by pulling power/bleeding energy, landing again, touching the mains down with the nose held up followed by a little power and back up into ground effect.  I "landed" consecutively four (4) times, touching the mains, adding power, pulling up into ground effect with the last a full power take off.  The Tower was not amused. 

[M20F]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

Thought experiment: How fast was Bob Hoover flying when he did successive one wheel landings with a climb and roll between touchdowns?

I have zero Shrike time.  I have 500+ AC560 time.  Wildly different airplane than a Mooney in a whole lot of ways.  The wing (laminar flow) though being a huge difference.  

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

Well let's think about that. If you hold it on the runway it will wheelbarrow. If you hold 5lbs back pressure it will take off maybe around 65 knots. This implies that there is enough elevator control to keep the weight distributed between all three wheels as the airplane accelerates. Since it sits at a positive angle of attack, it will eventually lift off, but it should be possible to hold it on the ground well above normal takeoff speed.

It seems there is a question of degree here...accepting that the wing is at a positive AOA when all three wheels are on the ground implies that at SOME speed the aircraft must lift off.  Certainly you can 'hold' the aircraft down with forward stick past a normal take-off speed; the question is how far past?  90kts seems awfully fast to me to 'keep' the aircraft on the ground without wheelbarrowing.

[PT20J]

14 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

It seems there is a question of degree here...accepting that the wing is at a positive AOA when all three wheels are on the ground implies that at SOME speed the aircraft must lift off.  Certainly you can 'hold' the aircraft down with forward stick past a normal take-off speed; the question is how far past?  90kts seems awfully fast to me to 'keep' the aircraft on the ground without wheelbarrowing.

I think you are exactly right. If I use 5 lbs of pull my airplane takes off at about 65 KIAS. If I add enough elevator pressure to keep the nose wheel on without letting the mains get so light that it wheelbarrows it will take off flat at some higher speed. Probably less than 90 KIAS. I'm betting on about 75 but I'll have to try it someday. This is all with the flaps up. It will definitely wheelbarrow with takeoff flaps because of the effective angle of attack is higher.

[PT20J]

22 minutes ago, M20F said:

I have zero Shrike time.  I have 500+ AC560 time.  Wildly different airplane than a Mooney in a whole lot of ways.  The wing (laminar flow) though being a huge difference.  

A Cherokee also has a laminar flow wing 

[Will.iam]

23 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

It seems there is a question of degree here...accepting that the wing is at a positive AOA when all three wheels are on the ground implies that at SOME speed the aircraft must lift off.  Certainly you can 'hold' the aircraft down with forward stick past a normal take-off speed; the question is how far past?  90kts seems awfully fast to me to 'keep' the aircraft on the ground without wheelbarrowing.

I could buy you might get 5-7 kts but not 20+!
even the formation flying guide shows you will touch down 70 to 75 no flap. No way it’s going to happen at 90. 

[MikeOH]

Just now, Will.iam said:

I could buy you might get 5-7 kts but not 20+!
even the formation flying guide shows you will touch down 70 to 75 no flap. No way it’s going to happen at 90. 

EXACTLY!