What happened to owners maintaining their planes?

[NewMoon]

So I have reviewed logs for ~20 Mooneys over the past year. Only oil change is at annual. Recent log book entries missing. Shock disks not replaced in over 12 years. Fuel leaks so bad it ate the wing walk material off.  O2 bottle expired 10+ years ago. Speed brakes never lubed/maintained in 10+ years. Moritz components failed, some rookie work arounds, some functions just abandoned all together with no back up. IFR certified planes with no backup AI, response was use your iPad. 

I guess I am old school.  Oil change every 25 hrs or 90 days. Oil traps water, especially in humid climates. Fresh oil is a cheap insurance policy. If something is not as it came from the factory then I fix it. If it's useless like an old ADF, take it out.

I guess I am just a little disheartened when trying to find a well maintained plane. I think some don't have the $$ to maintain like things used to be 10-20 years ago. I understand things have become expensive but adjust your price to make up for your lack of maintenance.  

[BlueSky247]

Not to be the old man shaking his fist at the clouds but....

 

It's the change in the culture. "Back in the day" people were a lot more self-sufficient and had to have a base level of handyness to figure things out on their own and take care of business. Nowadays, it's all short attention span and instant gratification. I was helping an 18 year old male recently with a minor car problem and his lack of even trying to google or youtube a solution was mind blowing. 

 

Good luck with your shopping. I've been looking as well, but haven't gotten as far as looking at logs. So many timed out engines out there, it's a shame. 

[NewMoon]

Could not agree more. I guess I thought the pilot community was immune from the demise of quality in this country.  Proven wrong.

[LANCECASPER]

On almost every used airplane you buy expect to do catch-up maintenance the first year (or two). If their airplane was their main focus they would be maintaining it and flying it and not selling it. Even if it has been well-maintained and now you have a different set of eyes looking at it, expect them to catch things that weren’t caught before. If the Seller after buying it loses interest expect very little in the way of preventive maintenance when you come looking. You don’t have to like it, just accept that fact and buy it accordingly. In addition to airworthy items found in the pre-buy, make sure you budget at least an extra $20,000 to catch up on things you’ll want done that weren’t necessarily airworthy items. 

[OR75]

the oil change maybe a different story.  I trust many / most pilot owners change the oil (and possibly filter) between annuals but are reluctant to make a logbook entry - although sort of "required" but not really.

Certified IFR but no back up AI : is there a functioning / and airworthy TC or not ?

 

[NewMoon]

37 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

On almost every used airplane you buy expect to do catch-up maintenance the first year (or two). If their airplane was their main focus they would be maintaining it and flying it and not selling it. Even if it has been well-maintained and now you have a different set of eyes looking at it, expect them to catch things that weren’t caught before. If the Seller after buying it loses interest expect very little in the way of preventive maintenance when you come looking. You don’t have to like it, just accept that fact and buy it accordingly. In addition to airworthy items found in the pre-buy, make sure you budget at least an extra $20,000 to catch up on things you’ll want done that weren’t necessarily airworthy items. 

Yeh I hear this. The last 3 planes (I have bought, flew and sold 16 planes in the past 19 years) I sold, an Acclaim,  a Mirage and a Jetprop all had service center pre-buys. The total squack repair cost was <$2,000 combined for all 3 planes. 

I totally agree to factor in some post closing repairs.  The issue is  i won't pay full top end retail then add on an additional $20-$30k in repairs. Maybe I should just convert an old school bus and go on the road.

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, BlueSky247 said:

So many timed out engines out there, it's a shame. 

I would rather purchase an appropriately priced plane with a timed out engine versus a quick, cheap overhaul just to advertise it was overhauled.

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, NewMoon said:

I totally agree to factor in some post closing repairs.  The issue is  i won't pay full top end retail then add on an additional $20-$30k in repairs. Maybe I should just convert an old school bus and go on the road.

lol yeah bolt some wings on that thing

[McMooney]

have to admit, i only change the oil every 40 to 50 hours 8)

I do worry about putting less than 10 hours a month on her, it's like every weekend but still its not all that much.  barely made 100hours last year

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, OR75 said:

the oil change maybe a different story.  I trust many / most pilot owners change the oil (and possibly filter) between annuals but are reluctant to make a logbook entry - although sort of "required" but not really.

It *is* required to make a maintenance record whenever maintenance is done, and the record should be made by whoever did the maintenance.   See FAR 43.9.    When an owner does preventive maintenance (or any maintenance) they should make a record as described in 43.9 and use their certificate number and certificate type, which can be Private Pilot or Commercial Pilot or whatever.

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

On the DIY subject, some people have occupations that make owning a plane possible.

I used to change the oil on my car.  Not worth my time (and the total pain of cleaning up the driveway after the inevitable initial miss of the catch-tank).

I used to mow my lawn and kind of liked doing that.  But I have to keep service up and, with 2 kids, I just can't afford the time.  Sold the lawn equipment.  The earnings from about 4-5 Mooney insurance policies pays my lawn guys for the year.  I bet I can write that many in the 50-60 hours per year I save.

Unless:

1. The DIY project is truly enjoyable, and/or
2. The DIY is easy and not inconvenient, and/or
3. The DIY is easy and truly saves a lot of marginal expense to be worth it

...then I'll just pay someone who knows what they're doing and generally not complain about the bill.

[Fritz1]

tough call, best airplanes are the ones from rising owner, flies a lot, spends oodles of money on repairs and upgrades, sells because he is buying a bigger airplane, these are snapped up fast and hardly ever hit the market, the vast majority of birds just hangs in there and requires lots of work to develop a semblance of reliability, takes looking at 20 to find a decent one, keep looking and you shall find

[NewMoon]

25 minutes ago, McMooney said:

have to admit, i only change the oil every 40 to 50 hours 8)

I do worry about putting less than 10 hours a month on her, it's like every weekend but still its not all that much.  barely made 100hours last year

at least you are flying it, assuming you fly it enough to flash off the water. ie get oil hot enough

[Marc_B]

I think the issue you're seeing is that there aren't lots of new aircraft produced (drive for "upgrade"), and not lots of "new off the line aircraft" owners in this segment of the market.  It's not like you see people selling their J to upgrade to an Ovation Ultra or Acclaim Ultra off the line.  So the aircraft that come on the market are more and more people getting out of the market (i.e. lost medical, just don't fly anymore, primary pilot deceased and friend/estate selling).  It seems that even with well maintained aircraft there is a lag between A.) I no longer fly much and B.) I'm ready to sell.  Not to mention the cost of basic quality maintenance and upgrade is WAY higher than it once was.

It seems like the "best case" is the involved/active pilot that is selling to move up (or down) to a more appropriate aircraft for them (i.e. turboprob, backcountry plane, jet share, etc.)...that's a case where you are probably likely to see well maintained equipment for sale.  Unfortunately this doesn't happen as frequently.

For what it's worth, lots of Mooney pilots I know who fly regularly have well maintained aircraft...and no desire to sell (except one who's been saying that for a long time )

[NewMoon]

28 minutes ago, Fritz1 said:

tough call, best airplanes are the ones from rising owner, flies a lot, spends oodles of money on repairs and upgrades, sells because he is buying a bigger airplane, these are snapped up fast and hardly ever hit the market, the vast majority of birds just hangs in there and requires lots of work to develop a semblance of reliability, takes looking at 20 to find a decent one, keep looking and you shall find

Thx, you I have many good ones before. Just never had to sift through some much poorly maintained ones 

[Justin Schmidt]

The day I sell is the day someone is putting me in a box. I have specific instructions in my will about my plane.

I fly 10-20 hrs a month so I opt for 45-50 hr oil changes. Oil is pretty clean at that time.

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

I would rather purchase an appropriately priced plane with a timed out engine versus a quick, cheap overhaul just to advertise it was overhauled.

I 100% agree with you.  A purchase that allows you to replace the engine such that you know all the history is worth a lot.

The problem is that sellers do not want to reduce the price to reflect the run-out engine.  For some reason they live by the idea that TBO is meaningless for part 91 ops and "the engine has lots of life left in it after TBO".

I know of cases where prop strikes were never recorded, or addressed properly.  I want an engine that is new.

[Utah20Gflyer]

4 minutes ago, Justin Schmidt said:

The day I sell is the day someone is putting me in a box. I have specific instructions in my will about my plane.

I fly 10-20 hrs a month so I opt for 45-50 hr oil changes. Oil is pretty clean at that time.

I do oil changes at approximately 50 hours and also do oil analysis every oil change and my test results always come back good.   I also fly my plane every week which I’m sure helps.  
 

I find the claim that you have to change the oil every 90 days or 20 hours or you are abusing your engine quite dubious.   Where is the data that shows better results from changing the oil at 20 vs 50?  If we both send in our oil for testing, someone else’s at 20 hours and mine at 50 hours is the lab going to quantify the superiority of the 20 hour oil?   
 

If my oil analysis comes back with the oil having quantifiable deficiencies then I will shorten my timeframe, but until then I’m sticking with the data.  

If someone has an oil analysis from some 20 hour oil I’d like to see it so I can compare to mine.  I think that would be interesting.  
 

maybe we should start a thread where we all post oil analysis.  I’d be happy to post all of mine.  
 
 

 

[Texas Mooney]

3 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I do oil changes at approximately 50 hours and also do oil analysis every oil change and my test results always come back good.   I also fly my plane every week which I’m sure helps.  
 

I find the claim that you have to change the oil every 90 days or 20 hours or you are abusing your engine quite dubious.   Where is the data that shows better results from changing the oil at 20 vs 50?  If we both send in our oil for testing, someone else’s at 20 hours and mine at 50 hours is the lab going to quantify the superiority of the 20 hour oil?   
 

If my oil analysis comes back with the oil having quantifiable deficiencies then I will shorten my timeframe, but until then I’m sticking with the data.  

If someone has an oil analysis from some 20 hour oil I’d like to see it so I can compare to mine.  I think that would be interesting.  
 

maybe we should start a thread where we all post oil analysis.  I’d be happy to post all of mine.  

I agree with you. 90 day oil changes is not just dubious, it is ridiculous. Many owners nowadays struggle to fly once a month. I can’t wait for the availability of unleaded Avgas and the introduction of modern long life l aviation oils with corrosion inhibitors. 

[Schllc]

I was always told that 50 hrs for a NA, and 25 for turbos was the best interval.  
My understanding was that it wasn’t because the “oil” was bad, but the contaminants suspended in the oil was what causes the issues. 
I don’t believe in “universal “ rules about oil changes in cars or planes. 
it’s more based on condition for me. 
I own nothing but Toyota and Lexus for my cars (personal and business) , I use full synthetic and change the oil every 15-20k miles in all of them and have been doing so for 25 years. I have several trucks, past and current, that have gotten close to 500k miles with nothing but batteries, alternators, coils and radiators. Never had a single engine issue in any of them, and we are talking about close to 50 separate cars in that time period.  
I'm sure if I was driving through dust, and sand, and water all day every day this would not be appropriate, but I don’t, so it is…

Leaded gas, and our 1930’s technology engines don’t allow this kind of longevity so I’ve stuck to the 25 and 50 hour rule.
I fly frequently enough to where I’ve never had to consider changing just bc of calendar time.  
With regard to purchasing a plane, barring something crazy like changing it every 2 years or every 300 hours or something silly, it’s highly unlikely that frequency of oil changes would be a determining factor at all for me.   
 

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, Texas Mooney said:

 I can’t wait for the availability of unleaded Avgas and the introduction of modern long life l aviation oils with corrosion inhibitors. 

Years ago, I knew a guy who never used anything but automotive Havoline 10W-30 in his Mooneys.  He ran them for years.  Eventually he timed out and his planes got sold.  Those planes are "somewhere".  I'd love to know if the engines ever had oil issues and if they all made it to TBO.

[Danb]

I do oil changes every 25 hours or less along with oil analysis generally do the changes myself but just had the MSC do it for another reason. I believe also it’s cheap insurance even though the cost of oil and filters are quite high. Getting a good look at the engine makes it worth me doing it, I just cleaned the engine for the first time me doing it and the extra clean power plant looks nice. I do more and more self maintenance as time goes by great therapeutic help. D

[Fly Boomer]

1 minute ago, Danb said:

Getting a good look at the engine makes it worth me doing it

I'm on the same frequency.  I can't stand the thought of only taking the cowling off once per year.  I'm too nosy -- I want to see what's under there.

[EricJ]

If you have a screen instead of a pressure filter (spin on), then 25 hours is recommended between changes to get the small contaminants out that the screen doesn't catch.    With a spin-on filter 50 hours is pretty typical.

Turbos heat the oil quite a bit, which accelerates the breakdown of the longer molecules that provide the best lubrication, so running a shorter schedule for that might make sense.

When I was racing regularly many folks (including myself) changed oil in the race engines based on time at temperature rather than hours or miles or time.   In other words if it got *really* hot (above some threshold), it got changed before the next race, if it stayed cool it could keep running, if it got pretty hot for a certain amount of time, it got changed, etc.    Those intervals wound up usually being shorter than one would worry about particle/dirt suspension, so length of time to keep from getting too much dirt was usually not the limit.   Any oil going through a turbo bearing usually gets really hot, so that could be a consideration.

 

[hubcap]

I do not work on Myrtle. I pay professionals who have the experience, knowledge, and proper tools.

I do however, keep her in impeccable condition. Dad taught me to keep my equipment in top condition all the time. In over 400 hours of flying Myrtle, I have never had to cancel or postpone a trip because  of a mechanical issue or squawk. It does cost money to be able to say that.