Looking for your help! Want an M20 - Which model is best and why? M20E or older.

[Tim Fitzpatrick]

Hi All,

1st off, I'd like to thank you in advance for your feedback!

I'm new to Mooneyspace and Mooneys in general. I hold my private and would like to obtain my IFR within the next 12-24 months. I have 750 hours logged in Beech C23's, C150's, C172's & 182's. I'm looking for the fastest, longest range M20 E or older. The specs I find online point me towards the C but looking for real world info from those of you who have spent hours in the A, B, C or E. In addition, are there models that you would avoid due to expensive AD compliance etc? Any other words of advice would be appreciated! Thanks all.

[Fly Boomer]

Not many As or Bs out there, Cs are carbureted, Es are injected.  QED

[hammdo]

Everyone will ask what your mission is — just a heads up ;o)

E is probably the best of the short bodies - C’s are a great workhorse. I own a C with speed mods so my numbers are different. Leaned out @ 9000 feet she goes about 8.5 GPH. My true airspeed is ~148-150 knots. My mission is max 2 people 99% of the time with baggage.

C’s are reasonable with repairs depending on how well they’ve been cared for. If you need room, F’s or Js.

It will boil down to your intended mission, how much you want the plane to already have (avionics, engine/prop time, interior).

I like mine ;o)

the speed numbers you show are overly optimistic - the 60’s marketing was overblown for sure…

-Don

 

[Shadrach]

Bottom line on the vintage birds. Speed wise all of the vintage Mooneys are within about 10kts of one another. The injected birds will run more efficient mixture setting and tend to run cooler. The F carries 14 additional gallons of fuel and has a 165lb GW increase but just a slight increase in empty weight. All of them are over achievers in their class. Pick the one that meets budget and mission.

[Shadrach]

13 minutes ago, hammdo said:

Everyone will ask what your mission is — just a heads up ;o)

E is probably the best of the short bodies - C’s are a great workhorse. I own a C with speed mods so my numbers are different. Leaned out @ 9000 feet she goes about 8.5 GPH. My true airspeed is ~148-150 knots. My mission is max 2 people 99% of the time with baggage.

C’s are reasonable with repairs depending on how well they’ve been cared for. If you need room, F’s or Js.

It will boil down to your intended mission, how much you want the plane to already have (avionics, engine/prop time, interior).

I like mine ;o)

-Don

 

What kind/brand of sheep skins are those?

[cliffy]

1st- Don't believe those cruise speed numbers! The factory book was very optimistic

C models (no mods) reliably do 135 -140 kts TRUE airspeed An occasional one does 5 kts faster

E models add 5-8 kts to TRUE a/s numbers (200 hp vs 180 hp)

Some mods add a few knots to each A very few cruise 155 kts TRUE.

Fuel burns vary according to your flight style. Some with Es and Fs go lean of leak and get the flows down a gallon or 2/hr

beyond what the carbed models can do. 

All early model Mooneys (up through G) have the same AD list (varies between manual gear and electric gear models)

Fs and Gs the same as C and Ds except for more room aft of pilot seats.  Speeds similar. 

You  are better off getting the best one you can afford, equipped the way YOU want rather than buying cheap thinking you'll 

remake it the way you want. Its ALWAYS more expensive doing it yourself.

You have enough flight time to use the Mooney as your IFR trainer  Decide what YOU need as far as an autopilot goes for your training.

Many of us got our IFR ticket in airplanes without any autopilot. Autopilots in Mooneys are a tough subject. Mostly old, many do not work

Parts are hard to find as is shops to work on them. It can be done but know the subject before you buy.

My mantra to all looking to buy an airplane- Trust nothing an aircraft salesman is saying. Check EVERYTHING out yourself

and have a real good pre-buy inspection done by someone who knows Mooneys. Preferably have an annual done as a pre-buy

by the shop going to sign off the annual so you don't have any surprises at the next annual. 

We have seen many many new buyers wind up with 25% of what thy spent for the airplane as a cost for their first annual. 

Secondly- Never buy the first airplane you look at. Get out now even at your local airports and look at all the Mooneys you can with a critical eye

to learn what looks good and what doesn't, Even if you can't get into them just looking at the outsides of many will give you an idea

of what you feel god about as you learn the market

Dig into this forum to learn what to, look for in a pre-buy inspection Mooneys are unique. 

Take your time and enjoy the search

I have a C and mine always does 135-140 kts TRUE at 9500 at about 9.5 -10.0 GPH Has been this way for 2,000 hrs I've flown it. 

AN aft CG will help the speed by maybe 5 kts opposed to the CG sitting at the front edge (2 heavy pilots and no baggage)

Some carry lead shot in the baggage compartment (if GW allows) to shift the CG aft for better cruise speeds. 

 

[hammdo]

Sheep covers— I got them last year covercraft I believe…

I’ll check — they are great…

Edit: Yep…

Covercraft AeroSheep seat covers for C model

-Don

[takair]

Find the best Mooney you can for the money you have!  Any Mooney model will out-do the competition on equivalent horsepower. Way back when I was buying, I was looking for a C model, because that was what I thought I could afford.  I stumbled on an E for the same price and have been very happy…..but I think I would be equally happy with a C model…or A, B, G, F….or of course F, J, R, S…….  But pick the one in the best condition and get a good pre-buy….

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, cliffy said:

1st- Don't believe those cruise speed numbers! The factory book was very optimistic

C models (no mods) reliably do 135 -140 kts TRUE airspeed An occasional one does 5 kts faster

E models add 5-8 kts to TRUE a/s numbers (200 hp vs 180 hp)

Some mods add a few knots to each A very few cruise 155 kts TRUE.

Fuel burns vary according to your flight style. Some with Es and Fs go lean of leak and get the flows down a gallon or 2/hr

beyond what the carbed models can do. 

All early model Mooneys (up through G) have the same AD list (varies between manual gear and electric gear models)

Fs and Gs the same as C and Ds except for more room aft of pilot seats.  Speeds similar. 

You  are better off getting the best one you can afford, equipped the way YOU want rather than buying cheap thinking you'll 

remake it the way you want. Its ALWAYS more expensive doing it yourself.

You have enough flight time to use the Mooney as your IFR trainer  Decide what YOU need as far as an autopilot goes for your training.

Many of us got our IFR ticket in airplanes without any autopilot. Autopilots in Mooneys are a tough subject. Mostly old, many do not work

Parts are hard to find as is shops to work on them. It can be done but know the subject before you buy.

My mantra to all looking to buy an airplane- Trust nothing an aircraft salesman is saying. Check EVERYTHING out yourself

and have a real good pre-buy inspection done by someone who knows Mooneys. Preferably have an annual done as a pre-buy

by the shop going to sign off the annual so you don't have any surprises at the next annual. 

We have seen many many new buyers wind up with 25% of what thy spent for the airplane as a cost for their first annual. 

Secondly- Never buy the first airplane you look at. Get out now even at your local airports and look at all the Mooneys you can with a critical eye

to learn what looks good and what doesn't, Even if you can't get into them just looking at the outsides of many will give you an idea

of what you feel god about as you learn the market

Dig into this forum to learn what to, look for in a pre-buy inspection Mooneys are unique. 

Take your time and enjoy the search

I have a C and mine always does 135-140 kts TRUE at 9500 at about 9.5 -10.0 GPH Has been this way for 2,000 hrs I've flown it. 

AN aft CG will help the speed by maybe 5 kts opposed to the CG sitting at the front edge (2 heavy pilots and no baggage)

Some carry lead shot in the baggage compartment (if GW allows) to shift the CG aft for better cruise speeds. 

 

I’ll have to wait until I am out of annual, but I’d like to see what kind of climb rate I get out of 135KIAS and at what altitude that equals level flight.  I have been flying this F for 20 years. It’s 150kt+ airplane the + will depend on altitude. I have verified it many times with 3 way speed runs, but what’s just as telling is breaking 150kts across the ground into a known (admittedly light) headwind. For many years I flew due west to Grandma’s (RIP) house for lunch. Many of those trips were made at just over 150gs to and just under 160gs on the return.   It’s 140kt+ bird at DAs above 10K 

[cliffy]

8 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I’ll have to wait until I am out of annual, but I’d like to see what kind of climb rate I get out of 135KIAS and at what altitude that equals level flight.  I have been flying this F for 20 years. It’s 150kt+ airplane the + will depend on altitude. I have verified it many times with 3 way speed runs, but what’s just as telling is breaking 150kts across the ground into a known (admittedly light) headwind. For many years I flew due west to Grandma’s (RIP) house for lunch. Many of those trips were made at just over 150gs to and just under 160gs on the return.   It’s 140kt+ bird at DAs above 10K 

I can agree on that. Some just fly a little faster than others. It was well known decades ago that being hand built some just were "better" than others in cruise speed. 

I've found that CG and correct overall trim account for the most gain in speed. Some being made by the "in between years" companies flew slower than those built before. Lots of things can align and put one into the 145+ kt speed range. You have a good one. 

Also all the claims about "speed mods" and what each adds to the total speed one has to understand that the numbers are not cumulative. 

I think the 3 best were the cowl closure, the windshield and the flap gap seals. 

[KSMooniac]

Are you really shopping for old, or a particular budget? Many of the vintage models were produced at the same time... If you can live with the short body (mostly C or E) they will be lower cost compared to an F with a 10" longer fuselage, and everything else being equal. Of course nothing is ever equal between 50+ year old airplanes!

If you regularly want to carry people in back, consider the G or F. If not, then focus on finding the best C or E you can find, especially with as much equipment you might desire already installed. The autopilot is the biggest wildcard IMO, and a good working one is wonderful for long trips. A solid airframe is priority number one, followed by equipment, then engine/prop, fuel tank status, and finally cosmetics. Everything except bad damage and bad corrosion can be reasonably fixed with money, but you might find yourself upside down quickly. If you plan to own and enjoy for many years, this is not important IMO. If you want to upgrade in a few years, you likely don't want to overhaul the engine, install a new panel, etc so think through all is the contingencies. There are a ton of threads here to search and learn too.

Sent from my motorola edge plus 2023 using Tapatalk

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

If you can live with the short body (mostly C or E) they will be lower cost compared to an F with a 10" longer fuselage, and everything else being equal. Of course nothing is ever equal between 50+ year old airplanes!
 

Everything else is not quite equal. In addition to the extra leangth, the F has a 165lb MGW increase as well as an additional 14 gallons of fuel. These may or may not be trivial differences depending on mission. Of the vintage models there is only one that can fill the seats and go somewhere.
 

 

 

[AndreiC]

As a fairly recent owner of a 1970 E model, here are some things I've learned:

-- Fuel injected (i.e., E or F versus C or G) is really nice; on top of the extra 20 hp, you don't need to worry about carb ice; hot starts were not an issue for me.

-- My bird will do 150 kts if pushed hard, but more realistically it's around a 142 kts plane; with the fuel injection and a good engine monitor you can run LOP at around 8.5-9gph at altitude.

-- The electric gear is ok, but many people swear by the manual one, which is lower maintenance. My plane had one gear up in the 90's because of a failed gear box for the electric gear mechanism (Dukes model). It was since replaced with a more reliable unit (Eaton).

-- If you can get a plane with recently resealed fuel tanks or with bladders, it's really good. Otherwise prepare yourself for regular patching of the tanks. Mine has the bladders and I am really happy not to have to worry.

-- A three-blade prop will slow you down 4-5 knots, lose you 15 lbs useful weight, and is a bit less smooth over a two blade. (Mine has the three blade.. I think many people consider it to look better, but I'd rather have the other advantages.)

-- Check when the gear shock disks were replaced; they are good for about 15 years on a short body, not sure on a long body. Costs about $3000 to replace all.

-- If your mission rarely involves 3 people in the plane (you + 2), then an E or a C is perfect; if you need to carry someone in the back frequently, I think an F or G is a must. Be wary of the useful load -- my E has a useful load of 897 lbs, which with full fuel means 3 people and no (or small) bags, or 2 people and plenty of baggage. 

-- For me engine and airframe health come way above fancy avionics. Many people will spend north of $40k on avionics; in my opinion this money is best spent on a solid airframe and a low-time engine from the factory or from a well-known shop. People have flown safely for 50+ years in these planes with steam gauges, I don't see why it should be a priority to change that. (Sure, it's nice to have the gizmos, but a 430W still seems perfectly adequate for my occasional IFR flight.) The only thing I do recommend is a solid autopilot, it can be very useful for long flights, and a life saver in IFR. Watching that AI for the slightest move for 3 hours in solid IFR is very trying. My plane has a good STEC 30 and I am grateful for it. If you plan to fly LOP a 4 cylinder engine monitor is also necessary.

-- The one part that seems to be very hard to find if yours goes bad is the accordion adapter for the airbox. Mooney produces these in small batches of about 50-100 at a time, and these get sold almost immediately. If you are looking at a fuel injected Mooney inspect yours carefully before buying, as having a bad one seems to be a possible cause for grounding you for a while. Other people may want to comment more on this, as mine seems to be ok.

-- It seems that after around 1968 there were some cost-cutting measures in producing these planes, which result in a 2-3 knot speed loss (more protruding screws and rivets instead of flush ones). So models before 1968 are better in this respect. But for every plane the biggest thing for me would be how well the plane was taken care of; being hangared most of its life, being flown regularly, being maintained by well-known shops or by a mechanic that shows care (these things can be seen from the log books) can make a huge difference in future maintenance costs, and this can trump almost anything else I wrote above. I would take a well-taken care of C model, at the same price, over a neglected F any day.

[DCarlton]

4 hours ago, Andrei Caldararu said:

As a fairly recent owner of a 1970 E model, here are some things I've learned:

-- Fuel injected (i.e., E or F versus C or G) is really nice; on top of the extra 20 hp, you don't need to worry about carb ice; hot starts were not an issue for me.

-- My bird will do 150 kts if pushed hard, but more realistically it's around a 142 kts plane; with the fuel injection and a good engine monitor you can run LOP at around 8.5-9gph at altitude.

-- The electric gear is ok, but many people swear by the manual one, which is lower maintenance. My plane had one gear up in the 90's because of a failed gear box for the electric gear mechanism (Dukes model). It was since replaced with a more reliable unit (Eaton).

-- If you can get a plane with recently resealed fuel tanks or with bladders, it's really good. Otherwise prepare yourself for regular patching of the tanks. Mine has the bladders and I am really happy not to have to worry.

-- A three-blade prop will slow you down 4-5 knots, lose you 15 lbs useful weight, and is a bit less smooth over a two blade. (Mine has the three blade.. I think many people consider it to look better, but I'd rather have the other advantages.)

-- Check when the gear shock disks were replaced; they are good for about 15 years on a short body, not sure on a long body. Costs about $3000 to replace all.

-- If your mission rarely involves 3 people in the plane (you + 2), then an E or a C is perfect; if you need to carry someone in the back frequently, I think an F or G is a must. Be wary of the useful load -- my E has a useful load of 897 lbs, which with full fuel means 3 people and no (or small) bags, or 2 people and plenty of baggage. 

-- For me engine and airframe health come way above fancy avionics. Many people will spend north of $40k on avionics; in my opinion this money is best spent on a solid airframe and a low-time engine from the factory or from a well-known shop. People have flown safely for 50+ years in these planes with steam gauges, I don't see why it should be a priority to change that. (Sure, it's nice to have the gizmos, but a 430W still seems perfectly adequate for my occasional IFR flight.) The only thing I do recommend is a solid autopilot, it can be very useful for long flights, and a life saver in IFR. Watching that AI for the slightest move for 3 hours in solid IFR is very trying. My plane has a good STEC 30 and I am grateful for it. If you plan to fly LOP a 4 cylinder engine monitor is also necessary.

-- The one part that seems to be very hard to find if yours goes bad is the accordion adapter for the airbox. Mooney produces these in small batches of about 50-100 at a time, and these get sold almost immediately. If you are looking at a fuel injected Mooney inspect yours carefully before buying, as having a bad one seems to be a possible cause for grounding you for a while. Other people may want to comment more on this, as mine seems to be ok.

-- It seems that after around 1968 there were some cost-cutting measures in producing these planes, which result in a 2-3 knot speed loss (more protruding screws and rivets instead of flush ones). So models before 1968 are better in this respect. But for every plane the biggest thing for me would be how well the plane was taken care of; being hangared most of its life, being flown regularly, being maintained by well-known shops or by a mechanic that shows care (these things can be seen from the log books) can make a huge difference in future maintenance costs, and this can trump almost anything else I wrote above. I would take a well-taken care of C model, at the same price, over a neglected F any day.

For my F with a 3 blade and all the speed mods (cowl, one piece belly, gap seals, wing root and dorsal fairings, etc), I usually claim 153 kts.  I don't have hard data to back it up, but that's what I've concluded after making 80 two hour flights to the same airport.  Regarding the accordion boot for the intake, LASAR has a waiting list; I put my name on it (ETA TBD).  

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Agreed completely, Ross, but the fuel capacity delta between C/E/G and F is actually “only” 12 gallons.  52 versus 64.  

I have rectified that with 64 gallon bladders in my C model.  And it still has over a 1000 pound useful load.  Because I’m tall it is a three seat airplane at best, though.  In spite of its ability to haul the weight, my C just doesn’t have the rear seat leg room to fill all four seats.  Not when I’m at the controls, anyway.  

If you want to fill all four seats in a vintage Mooney you really need a F model.  The G has the rear seat leg room for it but actually has a 50 pound lower gross weight than even the C does, so they don’t really have the useful load for four.  

  MyI bad. I had it in my head that the short bodies had 25gl usable a side. 
You have to have one of the lightest all metal Mooneys I’ve ever heard of. What’s your empty weight? I thought my plane was light at 1680lbs. I know the O360 in about 40lbs lighter than the angle valve. I didn’t think Mooney delivered many planes that were under 1575lbs.

 

[BloodRedSkies]

I have a 1969 E. It has 201 Windshield, Lasar cowl closure, flap and aileron gap seals as well as the the tail seals power flow. The downside is I have the 3 blade McCauley. My plane does exactly the book numbers to about 10k and is about 2kts better above 10. I plan 150kts and it's usually about 151-154. I'm waiting for Hartzell to come out with the composite two blade and we'll see from there. 

[McMooney]

1974 E here, almost stock, has lasar closure and a gap seal or two.
when really crusing  say  23/23  she'll do approx 147 to 150kts  @7000ft +

I tend to fly LOP so let's just say 135 to 140ish. 

empty weight < 1670 lbs with max being 2575 so 900+ UL.

I think the E is a perfect plane, really solid and flies really well.

if you aren't really tall say approx 6ft, you can get 4 people in the plane any taller and someone may lose parts of their legs.

Birdy hasn't been horrible for maintenance. Honestly i have to say she's actually been pretty good, only one real grounding fix in the last 5 years.

it is absolutely 100% true, it's far cheaper to buy an equipped plane then to upgrade
most cost have been due to me upgrading avionics and adding electronic ignition. ( eclipsed the purchase prace a year ago )

I"m actually pretty lucky, my brittain autopilot actually works even tracks green and magenta lines.

things i wish i had:
 #1  64 Gallons of fuel - really wish i had more fuel.  
    planning on adding extended range tanks next year so that'll fix that.
 #2  Turbo -- I just want it.

oh yeah, my birdy has a really forward cg, she'll go 5kts faster if i put something heavy in the back

 

[Jrags]

Being new at this myself, I wish I had paid more attention to useful load. My 1968 M20G is about 100 lbs overweight to start with and getting 3 adults in it requires me to leave fuel behind.  It would have been better for me to have smaller fuel tanks (52 gal) than stock but now I get to measure fuel at each fill up.  Being older (67), two hours per leg is all I can do anyway.  I'm also probably the slowest Mooney out there doing about 135-137kts.

My plane has no Nav capabilities.  I'm VFR and Foreflight solves that problem for me but getting radio and GPS quotes to upgrade was shocking.  An engine monitor quote is almost half the value of the plane.  An autopilot is completely out of my budget.  Installation was more than the equipment.  So if you want to train for a instrument rating, buy a plane already set up for it.  Instead of panel upgrades, I'm going to spend my money on speed mods.

Also being older, I'm having issues locking the gear up.  Gear down is no problem but I wish I had electric gear even with the added maintenance issues.  I do love the hydraulic flaps though.