650 Setup During Approach

[Tim-37419]

I thought I’ve seen a thread on this previously, but can’t find it and don’t want to hijack any of the other avionics threads.

 

For the 650/750 folks out there. What screen do you have active during an approach and have you swapped out any of the user fields? I have dual aspens and an iPad mini on my yoke in case I should be doing this differently.

 

I am not yet instrument rated (ground school and written complete) and in preparation for training next month I was following the magenta line for an rnav approach

I did not like looking down at the iPad to see the plate for the altitude constraints. 
 

Happy to hear some wisdom.

 

[Vance Harral]

I like the Flight Plan page, which shows the waypoint sequence, including distances, and altitudes.

The Default Nav page isn't bad, but I'm more inclined to use the Flight Plan page these days.

As a CFII, I discourage use of the Map page on a navigator during instrument approaches.  I feel like it's an inappropriate distraction.

[PT20J]

I like the flight plan page also on the GTN. It gives quick access if I need to change something. I have a G3X and have the map page up on that and I have a yoke mounted iPad running ForeFlight and I have the approach plate on that.

[PeteMc]

I leave mine on the Default Nav page. 

And with all the various screens I have, this may not be your fist choice, but for the User Fields on that screen I have:

Track (TRK) - Top Right

Estimated Time Enroute (ETE) - Top Left

Cross-Track Error (XTK) - Bottom Right

Vertical Speed Required (VSR) - Bottom Left

 

[Tim-37419]

5 hours ago, PeteMc said:

I leave mine on the Default Nav page. 

And with all the various screens I have, this may not be your fist choice, but for the User Fields on that screen I have:

Track (TRK) - Top Right

Estimated Time Enroute (ETE) - Top Left

Cross-Track Error (XTK) - Bottom Right

Vertical Speed Required (VSR) - Bottom Left

 

@PeteMc Is your GTN set up for vnav or vcalc? Is vsr showing you a decent rate for the next waypoint or the destination?

[midlifeflyer]

I'm another whose default is the flight plan page, not just for a GTN650 but with every GPS navigator I fly with or teach in. Even always have the plan up on the MFD with an G1000. Especially on the approach, the courses and distances are right there, in sequence. To me that's the best information display. 

The default nav page is mainly a backup CDI in comparison You have your real CDI or HSI, so you only need it in emergency situations; it's  super helpful for steam gauge partial panel.

The moving map on my EFB is far better than the one on the 650 and has the same legal status. @Vance Harral mentioned it potential distraction. I don't really see that as a big problem, but following the moving map instead of the CDI or HSI has probably led to accidents, Max Trescott in the AviationNewsTalk podcast talks about one. Because of zoom levels, you can appear to be right on the line but be way off course.

[kortopates]

[mention=14265]PeteMc[/mention] Is your GTN set up for vnav or vcalc? Is vsr showing you a decent rate for the next waypoint or the destination?

Current firmware puts them on VNAV.
VSR is available when there are altitude constraints such as on approach procedures. But for VNAV to provide VSR in the enroute portion you need to add altitude constraints to flight plan.

Personally i prefer DST-distance over the XTRK field. Have plenty of track info on the HSI and GPS screen already.


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[Tim-37419]

13 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Current firmware puts them on VNAV.

Vnav is giving me a no barometric altitude source. Not sure if the shop didn’t wire up the aspen correctly or if the 650 needs to take the altitude from my G5 - assuming that the 650 can or should be taking data from both instruments.

[kortopates]

Vnav is giving me a no barometric altitude source. Not sure if the shop didn’t wire up the aspen correctly or if the 650 needs to take the altitude from my G5 - assuming that the 650 can or should be taking data from both instruments.

I’ve seen this before on students installation, but can’t recall exactly the solution but think you may need the ADC in your installation (air data computer components that for example would give you density altitude)


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[Vance Harral]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Because of zoom levels, you can appear to be right on the line but be way off course.

This is my primary concern.  Moving maps are for situational awareness, not guidance.

I'm not a Luddite about moving maps.  I don't actually have an issue with pilots who have a geo-referenced approach plate or other moving map up during an approach, and do so myself on my EFB.  But when I'm teaching IR students to fly approaches, I turn off the maps in the early stages of training, to emphasize that only a CDI/HSI provides appropriate course guidance.  The map is for big-picture stuff, like helping you sanity check the course you've set, and remembering to turn the right way on the PT/HILPT/missed.

One thing I very much like about moving maps, is using them as a rough reference during a time when GPS/CDI reprogramming is required at vulnerable times.  A  benign example would be getting cleared direct to a fix you can see on your approach plate, but that you don't have loaded in your navigator (maybe you loaded a different transition, or you loaded VTF).  If  you get "cleared direct to ODDFIX", and you can see it right on a geo-referenced approach plate, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making a turn in the general direction of the fix and getting your wings back level, before you go heads-down to play with your navigator.  I feel similarly about an immediate climbing turn on a missed approach.  I've seen too many cases of pilots losing track of their bank angle and getting into a steep turn down low, because they're trying to click buttons or dial knobs while in a turn at low altitude.  With one student in particular, I finally made it a rule that he could either turn the airplane or play with the nav stack, but not both at the same time.  Moving maps help with this.

[Pinecone]

For practice approaches, I have the GTN set to the Traffic page.   

For real approach, I am not paying the much attentions.  I fly the needles in the Aspen or G-5 with the approach plate on an iPad Mini on the yoke.  I have a high level FF so have geo reference on the approach plate.

But I learned a long time ago, and still playing around with using the modern tools.  And will have start over when I put in the new avionics early next year.

 

[PeteMc]

7 hours ago, Tim-37419 said:

Is your GTN set up for vnav or vcalc?

VNAV and next Wpt.  So if there's a restriction for the next Wpt I have a quick visual clue if I need to make an adjustment.  

 

[PeteMc]

I'm curious why so many people say they leave the Flight Plan page up?  And @midlifeflyer even says he teaches this.

I would MUCH rather have a cross check instrument than to get what little info the FP shows you, which shows up in so many other places.  And certainly getting to the FP page if you need to is a non issue.  I do totally agree that the Map on the GTN doesn't help much.  I guess if your iPad failed then the Map on the 750 might come in useful, but certainly not on the 650 or the smaller GNX/GNC/GPS units (unless you had nothing else, but even then I'd only switch to it for a reference, then back to Default Nav).

 

[midlifeflyer]

16 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

I'm curious why so many people say they leave the Flight Plan page up?  And @midlifeflyer even says he teaches this.

I would MUCH rather have a cross check instrument than to get what little info the FP shows you, which shows up in so many other places.  And certainly getting to the FP page if you need to is a non issue.  I do totally agree that the Map on the GTN doesn't help much.  I guess if your iPad failed then the Map on the 750 might come in useful, but certainly not on the 650 or the smaller GNX/GNC/GPS units (unless you had nothing else, but even then I'd only switch to it for a reference, then back to Default Nav).

 

This is so much a personal preference thing, but in my case.... This picture is of the RNAV Y 5R into KRDU. The IAF is OTTOS. There are 4 stepdown between the IAF and the FAF, as well as a turn at the first stepdown. I just find the display of "here's what's coming next" incredibly useful from a stay ahead of the airplane perspective. If you learned it during instrument training or came across it later, it's basically the 5Ts* right in your line of sight.  

In terms of training, if it recurrent or transition, I let the pilot choose whatever they want to. But as soon as the miss a turn or an altitude, I suggest trying this.

 

(* Yeah, I generally hate mnemonics but have found this one useful for training and as a refresher for rusty pilots; even though I think it's usually taught incorrectly)

[PeteMc]

20 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I just find the display of "here's what's coming next" incredibly useful from a stay ahead of the airplane perspective.

Gee...  Here's what's coming and what I use to stay in front of the airplane...  It's the way I brief the Approach and really what I think you should be looking at. 

 

[midlifeflyer]

14 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Gee...  Here's what's coming and what I use to stay in front of the airplane...  It's the way I brief the Approach and really what I think you should be looking at. 

 

I have that too. But I only look at it periodically during the approach for general situational awareness and don't have to squint. You find a different display more useful, and that's okay. No wrong answer here.

[PeteMc]

22 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

and don't have to squint.

I hear you on that!!  But then that's what the Zoom is for!

And don't get me wrong on Chart vs Tech...  Many a time I've... ah... "spoken up"  when I hear CFIs saying they never let their Primary Learners use an iPad until they go on their XC flights or even after they've passed the Checkride.  Gad, how dumb is that not to let them learn their EFB while the CFI is in the plane to look out the window when they get stuck HEAD DOWN with "...how do I do that again?"  Same is true with DPs!  Go ahead and fail the iPad frequently, but teach them to fly the way they are going to fly once you cut them loose.  I equate it to my having to use old road maps or 1940s charts when I was learning and then letting me use current Sectionals after I passed the CR.