Mooney Market

[tracer773]

Hey Everyone.

I just started to look into airplane ownership and I am trying to put together a budget and get an understanding of the current market. I have read past posts discussing the increase in pricing but I haven't seen any recently and I couldn't find any that answered my questions completely.

1. What was pricing like before COVID compared to now? Most M20K or Bravo that I am looking at are in the $150-200K that need some modernization, or $250-300K that are ready to go. What was that like before? Most posts just say its more expensive, but does that mean double or like 20% more?

2. Are there more aircraft available for sale now than two years ago? Is the supply returning to normal? I read lots of estimates that 2023 was going to be like that, but nothing talking about what 2023 actually turned out to be.

3. What about parts and average yearly maintenance? Seems like before was $20-40k and now for a turbo its likely $40k+?

4. I get there is no 'correct' answer to this question, as it is anyone's guess. But what is the trend looking like going into 2024?

5. This is kinda related, but what is the general consensus about the ongoing viability of maintaining Mooney's given the state of the company?

I appreciate everyone's help. I am a detail oriented researcher and looking to buy mid-late 2024, unless the perfect option comes up. I will be selling this aircraft in 5 years, so I am a little more concerned about long-term value. Thanks.

 

Adam

[Danb]

Pre covid I found a couple advertisements 1975 F— 50-60k. 2008 R—$250-300. 1986 J $100-125

Have no clue of actual costs others that purchased pre COVID will chime in.

It appears there are more planes available today than last year, 

Parts and maintenance has increased dramatically due to inflation and supply chain issues, wait time can be quite high for parts, my yearly maintenance of my Bravo was considerably less than $40k yearly annuals between $7-10,000

I’d bet the market will soften due to the issues increasing parts and maintenance 

Personally I think Mooney will continue to provide parts and maintenance. Building planes no chance

 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, tracer773 said:

Hey Everyone.

I just started to look into airplane ownership and I am trying to put together a budget and get an understanding of the current market. I have read past posts discussing the increase in pricing but I haven't seen any recently and I couldn't find any that answered my questions completely.

1. What was pricing like before COVID compared to now? Most M20K or Bravo that I am looking at are in the $150-200K that need some modernization, or $250-300K that are ready to go. What was that like before? Most posts just say its more expensive, but does that mean double or like 20% more?

2. Are there more aircraft available for sale now than two years ago? Is the supply returning to normal? I read lots of estimates that 2023 was going to be like that, but nothing talking about what 2023 actually turned out to be.

3. What about parts and average yearly maintenance? Seems like before was $20-40k and now for a turbo its likely $40k+?

4. I get there is no 'correct' answer to this question, as it is anyone's guess. But what is the trend looking like going into 2024?

5. This is kinda related, but what is the general consensus about the ongoing viability of maintaining Mooney's given the state of the company?

I appreciate everyone's help. I am a detail oriented researcher and looking to buy mid-late 2024, unless the perfect option comes up. I will be selling this aircraft in 5 years, so I am a little more concerned about long-term value. Thanks.

 

Adam

I searched for "TSIO-360" at airpower.com just to get an idea how much an engine would cost.  Most say "out of stock" and "call for pricing".  Some show a price, but are "out of stock".  These are the ones that show a price, even if they are out of stock.  If you are looking for an early M20K (231), I think the engine is the LB1, and the web site says they have a rebuilt engine in stock.  I stopped my search when I got to the LB1.  I think your $40k annual expense may be a little high, but you have to be prepared for the expense of an engine at the beginning of your ownership.  With proper care and attention, at a normal or average number of hours per year, an engine should last 15 or 20 years, but that may not be your experience.  You may need an engine right after you buy and, while a $30k annual budget may be okay on average, if you just bought your first airplane, you won't have an engine account that is adequately funded.  There are cheaper ways to get an overhauled engine, but you get what you pay for.

TSIO-360-SB2   85,225
TSIO-360-FB9   74,760
TSIO-360-RB5   99,980
TSIO-360-FB1   72,180
TSIO-360-RB2   99,166
TSIO-360-KB1   74,613
TSIO-360-FB9   78,155
TSIO-360-KB10  76,842
TSIO-360-LB1   80,991  NEW
TSIO-360-RB2  104,435
TSIO-360-SB2   92,836
TSIO-360-KB10  72,275
TSIO-360-LB1   75,870  REBUILT IN STOCK
 

[Steve Dawson]

What's your mission for the plane? Are you going to just go for $100 hamburgers or is it for business over 500 miles 10 times a year? That should help determine which model to buy. 

Controller gives a pretty good idea of the market. Before Covid there were approximately 90-100 Mooneys for sale, then during Covid the demand increased and the number for sale decreased from 40-50 and the prices went up substantially for everything. This morning there's 95 for sale so the demand is lower and the prices should be going down soon. There's a few ad's showing that the plane has been listed for two years so they're probably overpriced and/or have something wrong with them. 

I've owned a J, an M and now a K and they all fit different missions. After the initial costs of bringing them up to your standard or your upgrades (such as deferred maintenance and avionics) they all cost different amounts to maintain. Fuel per hour is roughly 60% higher in the Bravo then the K or the J but you do go faster and it's great to fly. 

It sounds like you have the time to wait and buy, so find the one you want and hopefully the pricing will be right.

[Steve Dawson]

I just noticed that there's a 231 that's been properly modified on Controller that seems to be at a very good price. It's Canadian registered however that's relatively easy to change to an N registry. 

(I have no affiliation with that buyer) 

[tracer773]

1 hour ago, Steve Dawson said:

What's your mission for the plane? Are you going to just go for $100 hamburgers or is it for business over 500 miles 10 times a year? That should help determine which model to buy. 

Controller gives a pretty good idea of the market. Before Covid there were approximately 90-100 Mooneys for sale, then during Covid the demand increased and the number for sale decreased from 40-50 and the prices went up substantially for everything. This morning there's 95 for sale so the demand is lower and the prices should be going down soon. There's a few ad's showing now were the plane has been on for two years and they're probably overpriced or have something wrong with them. 

I've owned a J, an M and now a K and they all fit different uses. After the costs to bring them up to your standard or upgrade (such as deferred maintenance and avionics) they all cost different amounts to maintain. Fuel per hour is roughly 60% higher in the Bravo then the K or the J but you do go faster and it's great to fly. 

It sounds like you have the time to wait and buy, so find the one you want and hopefully the pricing will be right.

My mission will mainly be to visit clients and sales leads by myself. Sometimes I may have a second passenger and very occasionally a third. These meetings can be done via Zoom or postponed for weather, but I want FIKI just to be safe. I have clients coast to coast and am out of Kentucky. I probably wouldn't fly more than 3-4 hours one way in the personal aircraft. Long-term I want to start a non-profit part 135 and buy a Kodiak or Caravan. So I want to use this airplane to fly more frequently and polish my skills. Both my wife and I have friends scattered around the US, so we'll use it for that too. (Lot's of long cross country time, hence the desire for speed and FIKI.) I wouldn't describe myself as cost-averse as much as cost-aware. I am more utility minded and will pay if it makes sense.

Thanks for the info on the number of planes up for sale. That is the type of info I was hoping to get.

[WilliamR]

1. Mooney prices went up 35% -50% on average since early 2020 from my inexact analysis (this is a private market). On a dollar basis, 231s typically went up less than 252s that went up less than Bravos and so on.

2. My 252 unscheduled maintenance costs averaged $75.00/hr or about $8,000/yr on top of any annual inspection costs (inspection, not maintenance that came out of the inspection) and other recurring costs based on hours (mags, prop, oil changes, etc). Turbo engine overhauls are $$$$ as noted above. I'm paying for a 252 engine overhaul now. All-in overhaul costs including freight, remove, and replace; $96,569.00. 10 years ago that would have been close to $75,000. All in, over 16 years, I spend about $110.77/hr in scheduled and unscheduled maintenance for a 252 excluding accruals for paint/interior and engine overhaul. None of this includes any upgrades.

3. I've noticed inventory growing (during Covid, at one time, there was only one 252 for sale) in 2022 and 2023. Sales prices have only modestly moderated, if at all in 2023. That compared to the early Piper Malibu market which I also watch very closely. There, inventory is materially up and sales prices are materially down. However, that market saw >50% market increase since 2020. 

4. I watch the economy very closely including the general aviation market. It's my job. Assuming no major events, my guess is the Mooney market will see some modest increase in inventory and moderating of prices. I don't see pre-Covid prices unless there is a major, major event. So far, two major wars, and threats to GA from all angles (when it's there ever a threat?) really haven't made a dent in pricing. Operating costs are another story. Ask 5 economists what the market will do and you'll get 6 answers.

5. It's possible Mooney has been out of business (manufacturing) more than it has been in business. Viability of parts likely isn't going to change materially over the next several years. Lots of parts go into Mooneys that are not made by Mooney or if made by Mooney, that can't be replicated for a price. Then there is salvage as a parts source.

[Pinecone]

5 hours ago, tracer773 said:

 

 

1)  The purchase is a small part of the overall ownership.  But it is cheap to buy an airplane that already has the avionics and such on it versus a cheaper airplane and do the upgrades yourself.

2) What different does that make?  But in general, it seems so.

3)  These are not new airplanes, the costs can vary quite a bit.

4)  If you can get a solid answer for this, you can be a rich person in year.

5)  The company is still making parts, but lead times are long.  But a lot of parts from salvage aircraft and other sources.

With your specs, you are looking at an even small pool of aircraft.  I would get all set up before I really start shopping.  Financing approved if need, be talking to an insurance broker.  Set up  an account with an escrow service (I used AeroSpace Reports) and wire them money so you have a deposit applied in a hours if not sooner.   When you see the plane you want, you need to be ready to make and offer, place the deposit and close the deal.

There is no way to predict the long term value, but seldom do aircraft lose value.  There are only so many and then there is inflation.

[hubcap]

I purchased my M20K 231 in 2020 for $150k. Any reasonably priced plane with good avionics and a mid-time or lower engine seems to sell quickly.

I believe your estimate for maintenance is on the high side for a well-maintained plane. All-in I spend about $25,000 per year for 150 hours of flying. That includes all my fixed and variable costs.....hangar, oil changes, annuals, etc

 

[Steve Dawson]

If you're looking for a FIKI plane its only the later model Bravo, Ovation or an Acclaims that have that option. (not sure if the 252's and Encores were available) The turbo models will also get you above the weather at at least 1000ft/min when needed.

[larryb]

Encores can be FIKI. I have one.

[1980Mooney]

There are no Mid-body Mooney's currently for sale with FIKI (either on Controller of Trade-A-Plane). 

There is one M20K 231 on Controller with TKS (inadvertent - Not FIKI).  Useful Load is 829 lbs.   N231DH.  That is probably without the TKS tank filled.  I bet UL with deice filled is around 770 lbs.

This is barely a 2-person plane for the long-distance flight for which it is optimized.   With partial fuel of 65 gallons that leaves 380 lbs for people, baggage, hatrack, etc.

Similar dilemma to this:

 

There is a modified M20K - Rocket 305 on Trade-A-Plane, N921Z.  Rockets increase the GW 300 lbs over the 2,900 lb M20K.  But with the heavier TSIO-520 and full feathering prop you lose a good bit of that.  You also lose the economy of the 231 in exchange for speed.

• It looks like a hangar queen in partial restoration.  From the pictures it looks like it has TKS but no mention in the description.  Just painted.  They highlight that they just installed new insulation.  New interior.  But "Panel is Factory, Yoke mount for iPad No ADSB.".  When the interior was out was the ideal time to replace/modernize avionics, run new wiring, strip out old, install new antenna, etc - Odd, I bet they ran out of money coupled with long delays in available avionics.- got tired of the "project". 
• If you go to an old Aircraft.com advert it does mention TKS but no mention of FIKI. - appears to be "inadvertent" only
• The plane has suffered two (2) botched landings - AviationDB says that it broke off the left landing gear wheel and damaged right wing in a cross controlled landing in 2001 and in 2011 it hit a runway sign on landing that sheared the nose gear off.

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[Jetpilot86]

At least on some I was looking at the great time to buy was 2015-2016. A rash of 252’s that sat all this summer, were sold in about a week in late Aug around $190k. A 252 Encore upgrade with a nice panel and 20yo damage history went for $215k a couple months ago. Mine is a ‘95 Bravo with a recent DH & new Prop/0 SMOH started at $199k & finished @ $213k basically over the new Engine/Turbo/Prop all it really needs is an EDM900. If it gets through Maxwell in a couple months for the estimate, it’s a steal.  
Similar stuff I’m seeing is $240k & up. 

[Fly Boomer]

19 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

There are no Mid-body Mooney's currently for sale with FIKI (either on Controller of Trade-A-Plane). 

I believe only the 252 and Encore were eligible.

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I believe only the 252 and Encore were eligible.

Required dual alternator. I think you are right. 

[tracer773]

I said FIKI, and would prefer FIKI, but would be ok with inadvertent TKS. I don't have the illusion of intentionally flying in icing conditions but I have been in 'helpless' situations before and don't like the feeling. Having a turbo that can potentially climb out and TKS to give me the time to do so would likely be good enough.

My budget is likely going to be $300k for purchase price plus first year squawks. Which sounds like it will be doable but I will need to jump on the right opportunity quickly.

On 11/14/2023 at 10:00 AM, Steve Dawson said:

I just noticed that there's a 231 that's been properly modified on Controller that seems to be at a very good price. It's Canadian registered however that's relatively easy to change to an N registry. 

(I have no affiliation with that buyer) 

I noticed this one but had concerns about the ability of a single alternator to keep up. The 231 or a 305 would likely fit my needs, even with load restrictions. But I would want to modernize the panel and it seems like the system would be easily overloaded.

[Jetpilot86]

43 minutes ago, tracer773 said:

I said FIKI, and would prefer FIKI, but would be ok with inadvertent TKS. I don't have the illusion of intentionally flying in icing conditions but I have been in 'helpless' situations before and don't like the feeling. Having a turbo that can potentially climb out and TKS to give me the time to do so would likely be good enough.

My budget is likely going to be $300k for purchase price plus first year squawks. Which sounds like it will be doable but I will need to jump on the right opportunity quickly.

I noticed this one but had concerns about the ability of a single alternator to keep up. The 231 or a 305 would likely fit my needs, even with load restrictions. But I would want to modernize the panel and it seems like the system would be easily overloaded.

I’ve flown a TKS system on another type aircraft. Your only concern is running out of fluid. You should have plenty of time to exit trouble. 

[geoffb]

Mooneys simply don't have the useful load of Bonanzas or Cessnas.  I can't legally fly my 262 in my boxer shorts with full fuel.  If you need to move 3 people and stuff, you need a 210 or an A36.  T210s fit your budget and maybe a TN's A36.  Neither is as fast as a Bravo.

Mine is a business tool also and the reality of my mission is that 80% of the hours last year we me, briefcase, hardhat and maybe a light bag.  Occasionally some light parts or test equipment.  The other 20% were personal travel with my wife.  She's only interested in sitting for 2 hours at a stretch, so that allows for both of us and anything she wants to bring along.

Full TKS tank is only 54 lbs, doens't exactly throw the loading equation out of whack.

For $300k, if you want to go fast, Bravo any day.  They are nicer and faster than 252s and I prefer Lycoming engines.  If you need to carry heavy stuff or really 3 people and stuff T210 or A36, either hauls like a suburban.

[A64Pilot]

210 will in actuality carry significantly more than a Bo, Bo has CG “issues” The 210 can haul weight like a pickup truck, it and the 206 are very similar 

T210 is a 200+ kt airplane, I don’t know how fast a Bravo is? 210 especially with Flint tanks has really long legs, mine was a non turbo L model and carried 120 gls, speed wise it was really close to my J Mooney, so no where near as fast as the turbo if the turbo is up high. 210 is a much better IFR airplane than a Bo.

In truth I don’t see what people see in a Bo, I think it may be because they have always been thought of as wealthy people’s airplanes, same guy wears a Rolex Presidential.

[dkkim73]

@tracer773 I recently bought an Acclaim, really can't wait to fly it. (So what do I know?) This discussion made me think of the discussion thread(s) I posted and a lot of thoughtful advice. It feels a little bit like deja vu incl a lot of the alternatives you are considering. I was hard-selling myself, in the end, on FIKI TKS and turbocharging/normalizing because of my locale and primary zones of operation. It sounds like you're really a lot more flexible on that. 

In addition to the above, if you're flex on the turbo, esp. in KY, you might consider the Ovation? People in the know really seem to love them, and they would seem to offer significantly lower cost of acquisition and operation, while still allowing airframes new enough to have fewer troubles, but old enough to be more affordable. Also with or without G1000. Food for thought. 

David

 

[1980Mooney]

On 11/30/2023 at 2:43 PM, geoffb said:

Mooneys simply don't have the useful load of Bonanzas or Cessnas.  I can't legally fly my 262 in my boxer shorts with full fuel.  If you need to move 3 people and stuff, you need a 210 or an A36.  T210s fit your budget and maybe a TN's A36.  Neither is as fast as a Bravo.

Mine is a business tool also and the reality of my mission is that 80% of the hours last year we me, briefcase, hardhat and maybe a light bag.  Occasionally some light parts or test equipment.  The other 20% were personal travel with my wife.  She's only interested in sitting for 2 hours at a stretch, so that allows for both of us and anything she wants to bring along.

Full TKS tank is only 54 lbs, doens't exactly throw the loading equation out of whack.

For $300k, if you want to go fast, Bravo any day.  They are nicer and faster than 252s and I prefer Lycoming engines.  If you need to carry heavy stuff or really 3 people and stuff T210 or A36, either hauls like a suburban.

"I can't legally fly my 262 in my boxer shorts with full fuel."   The irony in this reality is that all Mooney's since the first M20B in 1961 to the last Acclaim fly on the same wing.  The same wing lift that would legally only fly 2,575 lbs in 1961 would legally lift 3,368 lbs nearly 60 years later.  And then the Factory had owners salivating that GW might increase another 300-400 lbs on the same wing with only landing gear mods to Long Bodies.  So that would be 3,800+ lbs on the same wing that you fly on.  The only difference is the power and technique to fly the plane.  Indeed, Rocket Engineering boosted the MGW on my Mid Body J from 2,740 lbs to 3,200 lbs with the addition of 100 HP.  There were no modifications to the flight controls or fuselage - just more weight in the nose and more weight in the tail to get a signoff from the FAA that was more agreeable back then.  It is a paper exercise.  Legal maximum weight and safe maximum weight in a Mooney are two different things.....

[Jetpilot86]

20 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

@tracer773 I recently bought an Acclaim, really can't wait to fly it. (So what do I know?) This discussion made me think of the discussion thread(s) I posted and a lot of thoughtful advice. It feels a little bit like deja vu incl a lot of the alternatives you are considering. I was hard-selling myself, in the end, on FIKI TKS and turbocharging/normalizing because of my locale and primary zones of operation. It sounds like you're really a lot more flexible on that. 

In addition to the above, if you're flex on the turbo, esp. in KY, you might consider the Ovation? People in the know really seem to love them, and they would seem to offer significantly lower cost of acquisition and operation, while still allowing airframes new enough to have fewer troubles, but old enough to be more affordable. Also with or without G1000. Food for thought. 

David

 

The achilles heel of the G1000 built Mooneys is that if support for them ever ends, a TSO will be required to replace them as they were integrated vs added on. There are threads that debate how significant, or not, that can be. 
I’m checked out in a G1000 Bravo and could only get the MFD set up like I wanted in the Emergency Mode. Otherwise, I like the G600 setup on the one I have now, better, despite having to swap out my OEM engine instruments shortly. 

[Danb]

On 12/1/2023 at 6:02 PM, dkkim73 said:

@tracer773 I recently bought an Acclaim, really can't wait to fly it. (So what do I know?) This discussion made me think of the discussion thread(s) I posted and a lot of thoughtful advice. It feels a little bit like deja vu incl a lot of the alternatives you are considering. I was hard-selling myself, in the end, on FIKI TKS and turbocharging/normalizing because of my locale and primary zones of operation. It sounds like you're really a lot more flexible on that. 

In addition to the above, if you're flex on the turbo, esp. in KY, you might consider the Ovation? People in the know really seem to love them, and they would seem to offer significantly lower cost of acquisition and operation, while still allowing airframes new enough to have fewer troubles, but old enough to be more affordable. Also with or without G1000. Food for thought. 

David

 

David which acclaim did you buy, I also bought one this year, good luck have fun and hold on

D

[jrwilson]

On 11/19/2023 at 10:34 AM, tracer773 said:

I said FIKI, and would prefer FIKI, but would be ok with inadvertent TKS. I don't have the illusion of intentionally flying in icing conditions but I have been in 'helpless' situations before and don't like the feeling. Having a turbo that can potentially climb out and TKS to give me the time to do so would likely be good enough.

My budget is likely going to be $300k for purchase price plus first year squawks. Which sounds like it will be doable but I will need to jump on the right opportunity quickly.

I noticed this one but had concerns about the ability of a single alternator to keep up. The 231 or a 305 would likely fit my needs, even with load restrictions. But I would want to modernize the panel and it seems like the system would be easily overloaded.

I have the single alternator 12 V system on my 231.  Does fine with an electrical load w LED lights.  Only issue is on the ground or on short final when power is pulled way back.

[wombat]

@tracer773 I think your budget is adequate (approaching excessive) for your goals.   That's great and I wish you the best of luck!  I had an extremely similar budget and goal as you.

I've got the single alternator 12V (14V) system on my M20K 231 airframe that has been modified to the 305 "Rocket" and have the non-FIKI TKS system.  It has a modern(-ish) panel with a G500, 750, G5, and EI MVP-50 engine monitor.    I typically run all the exterior lights (LEDs) in all phases of flight and have not noticed any power problems even when running TKS and/or extending/retracting the gear.   I don't think I've ever extended the gear while still running the TKS pumps though.

I bought it earlier this year and it's in annual right now.  I expect my first year expenses including some immediate maintenance (resealing all fuel tanks) and annual which started today will not exceed $300k.   So far, so good!  If I do exceed $300k, believe me, all of Mooneyspace will know because the annual will have been 2.5X my expected budget!