donkaye Posted October 13, 2023 Report Posted October 13, 2023 It's one thing to have bought a new G1000 Mooney many years ago before WAAS, when that was the latest in technology. It's just bad luck when it comes to selling it now when even newer technology exists with few or no options for a new buyer to upgrade. OTOH knowingly buying a non upgradable airplane would not be something I would be inclined to do. Even substantial discounts would not cut it for me. There are too many new safety features available like Visual Approaches, Smart Glide, and Envelope Protection on new autopilots to name a few, that should make new buyers take a long look before they buy a pre-WAAS non upgradable airplane. 2 Quote
LANCECASPER Posted October 14, 2023 Report Posted October 14, 2023 22 hours ago, midlifeflyer said: Personally, based on what I've seen and read of the G1000 history with Mooneys, Bonanzas, and Diamonds, with just about anything other than a Cirrus or Cessna, I'd look seriously at the economics and viability of replacing the G1000 with something that does not require airframe manufacturer consent for every update and upgrade. That's not possible at this point since the G1000 is part of the Type Certificate. Someone would need to develop an STC to take out the G1000 and replace it with something else. 1 Quote
midlifeflyer Posted October 14, 2023 Report Posted October 14, 2023 11 hours ago, LANCECASPER said: That's not possible at this point since the G1000 is part of the Type Certificate. Someone would need to develop an STC to take out the G1000 and replace it with something else. I guess not viable at this point. Too bad. Quote
Schllc Posted October 14, 2023 Report Posted October 14, 2023 I am a big fan of the g1000., and I have never met a single person who owned one and said they wish they had something else. I suppose if I felt like the equipment was deficient I would agree with those who think it’s limiting, or I felt like it didn’t have everything required for safe operation. While it isn’t a new touch screen it is extremely robust and complete, and with flight level change and nearest you also have the precursor to “autoglide”. I guess I just disagree with those who think it detracts from the value of the plane, but to each their own. 5 Quote
Pinecone Posted October 14, 2023 Report Posted October 14, 2023 The issue is the non-WAAS installations. Without a "factory" path forward, it is very limiting. 1 Quote
GeeBee Posted October 14, 2023 Report Posted October 14, 2023 I really like "NRST" button over "smart glide". I know how far I can glide. I need to know what's available and the NRST gives me nearest airport, bearing, distance but more importantly runway surface, length, approach available and CTAF freq. All that and with two button pushes (Direct and Enter), I'm going direct to that airport. I keep the NRST box open full time during cruise. Most people who eschew G1000 have not flown it. I recently flew Portland, ME to Baltimore through Boston and New York's airspace. Worse, I had weather I was deviating around. I had 5 different reroutes involving airways including T routes and never opened my iPad. The power of the G1000. 3 Quote
Schllc Posted October 14, 2023 Report Posted October 14, 2023 59 minutes ago, Pinecone said: The issue is the non-WAAS installations. Without a "factory" path forward, it is very limiting. You are correct that you cannot purchase the upgrade new any longer, but there are always salvage boxes from other aircraft, and Garmin gives full service for any repairs. I have upgraded three non waas Mooney, two ovations and an acclaim and I had to look and wait a month or two at the longest to find the parts. With the supply chain the way it is that’s probably quicker than anything new! In addition, finding the gia63w’s myself saved me over 10k each time. Quote
William Munney Posted October 22, 2023 Report Posted October 22, 2023 Glass cockpits in general Aviation are simultaneously the best and worst thing to happen in GA. They are clearly better for a traveling airplane like most Mooneys but extremely expensive and very tricky to upgrade in some older installations like the factory installed G1000 or the Avidyne products in the Cirrus. What I see in the general aviation population are some nice airframes with panels heading towards obsolescence with no path forward……or a very expensive path forward. To be fair, I have flown most of my life with non-glass, non-RNAV, non-WAAS avionics in every kind of weather. A basic 6-pack of instruments and maybe an HSI. This includes a multitude of piston singles and twins, turbo-props, up to the Boeing 727 and MD DC9. It’s a safe as any other avionics package if you are proficient. However, todays glass avionics and autopilots for small airplanes are just fantastic and I highly recommend them. The amount and quality of information at your fingertips is amazing. Here is something else to consider. GPS navigation is the future. More specifically, WAAS GPS is the future. And soon, WAAS GPS with ground based augmentation for ILS-like approaches. The FAA FANS (Future Air Navigation Systems) programs ensure this. More and more ground based Nav aids will be decommissioned along with ground based Nav for instrument approaches. So, you have to be honest about how you use your airplane i suppose. If you are flying around your neighborhood, so to speak, and not in the clouds much I would not worry about any of this. But, if you are using your airplane as an IFR traveling machine, and planning on doing so for awhile, then all this is very important for the airplane’s present and future capabilities and for re-sale. For my use, I would only consider a Non-WAAS G1000 airplane at a large discount and plan on installing new Nav-comms. I don’t really see anyone presently offering discounts though. Otherwise, buy the analog panel with a modern GPS navigator and live happily ever after. I went through all this very recently before I bought my new (to me) Mooney Ovation. I must have talked to at least five avionics shops at length about analog panels, upgrade possibilities, WAAS vs Non-WAAS and first generation G1000 and Avidyne suites. I ended up buying a plane with a panel the previous owner had upgraded to Garmin glass even though it needed a new engine and a few other things……which STILL was less money than the panel would have cost me all by itself. The GA fleet has a big avionics bill coming due. It’s just a matter of who is going to pay for it. 1 Quote
Fly Boomer Posted October 22, 2023 Report Posted October 22, 2023 8 hours ago, William Munney said: For my use, I would only consider a Non-WAAS G1000 airplane at a large discount and plan on installing new Nav-comms. I don’t really see anyone presently offering discounts though. Otherwise, buy the analog panel with a modern GPS navigator and live happily ever after. Not a problem for me, but I still don't understand how those airplanes get upgraded. I thought the G1000 was written into the type cert, and there are no STCs to change that? 1 Quote
M20F Posted October 22, 2023 Report Posted October 22, 2023 G1000 is dead. I wouldn’t buy any plane with it (Mooney or otherwise). 1 Quote
midlifeflyer Posted October 22, 2023 Report Posted October 22, 2023 1 hour ago, M20F said: G1000 is dead. I wouldn’t buy any plane with it (Mooney or otherwise). I don't know about dead, but I wouldn't either unless it was a Cirrus. They seem to approve upgrades. Quote
GeeBee Posted October 22, 2023 Report Posted October 22, 2023 If it is dead......why is Textron, Kodiak et al delivering so many new airplane with it? 1 Quote
1980Mooney Posted October 22, 2023 Report Posted October 22, 2023 46 minutes ago, GeeBee said: If it is dead......why is Textron, Kodiak et al delivering so many new airplane with it? Do you mean why are Textron, Kodiak etc delivering planes with G1000 NXi? I think he was referring to planes with only the original G1000 which is like being stuck with a computer that can only run Windows 7 while everyone else has upgraded to Windows 10 and now 11. Windows 7 (like a Mooney with G1000) will still function as long as you stick to the limited activities that it historically supported. Quote
GeeBee Posted October 23, 2023 Report Posted October 23, 2023 36 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said: Do you mean why are Textron, Kodiak etc delivering planes with G1000 NXi? I think he was referring to planes with only the original G1000 which is like being stuck with a computer that can only run Windows 7 while everyone else has upgraded to Windows 10 and now 11. Windows 7 (like a Mooney with G1000) will still function as long as you stick to the limited activities that it historically supported. Nxi is not that difficult of an upgrade. Virtually plug and play. All we need with Mooney is willingness to work with Garmin. Every airplane with G1000 can be upgraded to Nxi. It was part of the Garmin plan. Rack in the GIA 64s, replace the screens, update the software and it is done. Accordingly G1000 is not dead, but upgradable IF the factory will get on with it. Quote
Ibra Posted October 25, 2023 Report Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) On 10/23/2023 at 2:31 AM, GeeBee said: Accordingly G1000 is not dead, but upgradable IF the factory will get on with it If the factory 1/ still make and sell aircraft and 2/ have interest in supporting legacy units Even if those conditions apply (altough they are mutually exclusive as there is an incentive to ditch old products and customers rather than fix and upgrade), the G1000 path to WAAS/NXI upgrades are still pricey are in 6 digits ranges as you still need airframe manufacturer to order appropriate software development from Garmin which can take years for delivery, especially for "weak manufacturers", a friend was quoted 180k$ (or €?) by Diamonds to get NXI in DA42 which is 30% of aircraft price, even after he agreed on that they dropped the case as not worth it... I think powerful manufacturers (KigAir, TBM, Citation, Phenom) have more leverage on Garmin, I think they quote 6months time frame to sort on case by case basis, obviously pricing is not even discussed: it's whatever you have ! I don't think Mooney aircraft or owners would bother with this, it's a lost battle and time have moved on G1000 Ovation There is lesson about keeping things modular when it comes to "future aircraft pannel" Edited October 25, 2023 by Ibra 1 Quote
LANCECASPER Posted October 25, 2023 Report Posted October 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, Ibra said: If the factory 1/ still make and sell aircraft and 2/ have interest in supporting legacy units Even if those conditions apply (altough they are mutually exclusive as there is an incentive to ditch old products and customers rather than fix and upgrade), the G1000 path to WAAS/NXI upgrades are still pricey are in 6 digits ranges as you still need airframe manufacturer to order appropriate software development from Garmin which can take years for delivery, especially for "weak manufacturers", a friend was quoted 180k$ by Diamonds to get NXI in DA42 which is 30% of aircraft price, even after he agreed on that they dropped the case as not worth it... I think powerful manufacturers (KigAir, TBM, Citation, Phenom) have more leverage on Garmin, I think they quote 6months time frame to sort on case by case basis, obviously pricing is not even discussed: it's whatever you have ! There is lesson about going modular when it comes to future aircraft cockpit... It's $33,000 to upgrade a WAAS G1000 Beechcraft Bonanza/Cessna singles to NXi. If Mooney did all of what they would need to do it should be around the same price. https://www.garmin.com/en-US/blog/aviation/retrofit-g1000-nxi-availability-expanded/ 1 Quote
MatthiasArnold Posted October 25, 2023 Report Posted October 25, 2023 IMHO there should also exist some previous ground-work for G1000 Mooney airframes upgrade path to NXi: The work done for Ovation Ultra & Acclaim Ultra? At least some of it could (eventually) be applicable? 3 Quote
Ibra Posted October 25, 2023 Report Posted October 25, 2023 48 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said: It's $33,000 to upgrade a WAAS G1000 Beechcraft Bonanza/Cessna singles to NXi. If Mooney did all of what they would need to do it should be around the same price. Cessnas, Bonanzas, Pipers cascaded some Garmin/FAA costs down from similar work on jets or turboprop, I imagine Mooney would be sort of start from scratch like Diamond did, in any case, 33k$ is lot of money… 1 Quote
Schllc Posted October 25, 2023 Report Posted October 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Ibra said: Cessnas, Bonanzas, Pipers cascaded some Garmin/FAA costs down from similar work on jets or turboprop, I imagine Mooney would be sort of start from scratch like Diamond did, in any case, 33k$ is lot of money… 33k for a completely new avionics panel, which can be done in a few days seems like an insanely good deal to me… that being said I just did spend 7x that and waited 13 months for my Aerostar to get a new panel… it’s all relative. 3 Quote
Danb Posted October 25, 2023 Report Posted October 25, 2023 It’s interesting the statements that come from those that don’t have a G1000 plane versus those that do. I’ve been flying the 1000’s since Mooney implemented them one of the first Bravo GX’s. 17 years, no repairs, $24,000 for WAAS upgrade and $7,000 for Garmin 345. Being older,old, I don’t have to squint looking at little instruments g700 is arguably the best autopilot made. The main drawback is I can’t download flight plans. Recently selling my Bravo, mistake, and buying an Acclaim I looked at a lot of planes those with big glass G500,600 and G3X were ok,although many spent $50to 100k for there inexpensive upgrades. Still the don’t match the G1000 NXI which we’ll be able to upgrade sooner or later. This debates been going on for years jealously being cheap or what not. As Ray mentioned and I agree I wouldn’t change 4 1 Quote
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