Big Brother Landing Fees

[Pinecone]

On 6/24/2023 at 2:12 PM, 1980Mooney said:

And we think the tax on the sales of AvGas, the stuff we use (how many airports have a "self serve Jet-A pump"?) at all these GA airports, pays for everything. at perception.  

My home airport has self-serve Jet-A.

There is a tandem jump operation operating a couple of Caravans.  A Vision Jet, a Jet Ranger, and a single engine turbo prop.

I am not sure if they have a truck for Jet-1, but have SS and FS AVGAS

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

My home airport has self-serve Jet-A.

There is a tandem jump operation operating a couple of Caravans.  A Vision Jet, a Jet Ranger, and a single engine turbo prop.

I am not sure if they have a truck for Jet-1, but have SS and FS AVGAS

My home drove has self service and trucks foe both 100LL and Jet A. Don't turn on the wrong pump!

Filled up this weekend for $5.98, I think. (Don't have the receipt handy, but it was $176 for not much over half tanks.)

[Pinecone]

You start by parking near the proper end of the fueling rig.

The fuel setup has one credit card reader.  You select 100LL or Jet A.

Then you have to go the appropriate pump.hose setup, which is labeled.  And The Jet A hose has the big oval nozzle.

[RoundTwo]

I recently had a $15 landing fee from a local Georgia FBO and they said they needed my card to put on file. When leaving, I asked for a receipt and was more than slightly perturbed to find an additional 3% surcharge for using a credit card. Heaven forbid they miss out on credit card processing fees on a charge for providing no service. 

[kortopates]

Not that unusual for FS fuel. Adds a “hiden fee” to FS when considering the difference between FS and SS. I mostly insist on being there for fueling and therefore prefer SS so rarely get FS fuel. But it’s not always an option.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Parker_Woodruff]

On 6/20/2023 at 3:59 PM, FlyingDude said:

https://www.vector-us.com/planepass

Just saw on facebook...  They install cameras at airports and they send you landing bills in the mail...

Becoming more and more like Europe...  Making GA unaffordable one step at a time.  I'm already sending a note to AOPA.  

They did this in Dallas and set them up at Love Field (DAL).  Why these cities just don't charge what they need on the fuel flowage fee is beyond me.

[Hank]

40 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

They did this in Dallas and set them up at Love Field (DAL).  Why these cities just don't charge what they need on the fuel flowage fee is beyond me.

Because then they wouldn't collect anything from visitors who don't buy fuel.

So they set up landing fees based on needed funds and current number of landings, then are surprised when many visitors choose to go elsewhere, and the money they planned on does not materialize . . . . Bureaucrats are such an unimaginative bunch!

[Parker_Woodruff]

We need more privately owned airports.

[Hank]

45 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

We need more privately owned airports.

I'm heading to one Friday. 

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

We need more privately owned airports.

Many of the privately owned airports in the Houston area now also charge ramp/landing fees for transient planes if you don't buy fuel (which has the ramp/landing fee cooked into the high price).  Probably only a matter of time until they all do.  

[Fly Boomer]

3 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Many of the privately owned airports in the Houston area now also charge ramp/landing fees for transient planes if you don't buy fuel (which has the ramp/landing fee cooked into the high price).  Probably only a matter of time until they all do.  

Seems like market forces would create one airport with good runways and a nice facility that wanted to sell a lot of gas.

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

We need more privately owned airports.

Have you seen some of those?    No, we don't need that. 

[The Other Red Baron]

KHSD is privately owned and open to the public.  Pretty nice place my only complaint is no after hours access.

https://skyvector.com/airport/HSD/Sundance-Airport

[Parker_Woodruff]

17 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Many of the privately owned airports in the Houston area now also charge ramp/landing fees for transient planes if you don't buy fuel (which has the ramp/landing fee cooked into the high price).  Probably only a matter of time until they all do.  

That's fine.  But they're better for the taxpayer and sometimes it's easier to establish a business at one without some home-cooked Airport Minimum Standards designed to keep competition out.

[Parker_Woodruff]

15 hours ago, EricJ said:

Have you seen some of those?    No, we don't need that. 

Yes, they're awesome!

Who wants to go in with me on this one?

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/4241-Birdsong-Blvd-Lutz-FL/23251857/

[FlyingDude]

I don't think you can make a clear cut distinction between public vs private as in good vs bad.  Public tends to be mismanaged and turn into a drain of funds, but same does happen with private too.  Furthermore, in Europe many airports are private and they have reduced operating hours, huge fees and personnel that justifies those fees.  For example, small class-G airports have their ARO office (something that's supposed to give you wind, QNH (altimeter setting) and runway in use info), so you talk to the ARO (like say "Livingston Information, ....") instead of making "Livingston traffic, ..." blind calls.  All those people cost money... and sometimes start acting like it was a controlled airspace, giving out "clearances", ordering you to go around, etc.

I rest my case that the airports' budgets need to be reviewed.  If they are well managed, don't have deadweight, but still come short, then yea, we should pitch in.  If they are being treated as a lucrative source of easy money, because as you know, pilots have deep pockets and they leave a trail of $100 bills anywhere they set foot ... they'll find it out that flying is not a necessity and it can easily become unaffordable.  Good luck then charging $50 ramp fees, or $10 landing fees in the middle of freaking nowhere.

Edit: 

maybe that's what they are after, after all...  killing airports so that more McMansions can blossom.

[Hank]

5 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

You said "in Europe many airports are private, and they have reduced operating hours, huge fees and personnel that justifies those fees." 

Let me get this straight - You are perfectly fine with PRIVATE Class-G airports in Europe loading up with expensive personnel and charging "HUGE FEES" (your words) to do things that automation can do just fine ("give you wind, QNH (altimeter setting) and runway in use info").   "ALL THOSE PEOPLE COST MONEY" (your words) - you specifically call that "JUSTIFIES THOSE FEES".  And you are fine with them reducing operating hours.

But here you rant about Public Airport management alleging bad management with excessive charges. However in Europe you have no problem being played for a sucker at PRIVATE airports where you are "treated as a lucrative source of easy money, because as you know, pilots have deep pockets and they leave a trail of $100 bills anywhere they set foot" 

Your logic is contradictory.

Here we've replaced the overhead salaries of ground personnel with AWOS, just a small weather set and transmitter. There goes a lot of justification for high fees.

The small private field that I'm going to tomorrow is unpaved and unattended, but does have some shiny new hangars! Plus a few outside tiedowns for visitors (like me!). The parking rates are very low, too. Used to be $25/week, we'll see if the new owners changed that.

[FlyingDude]

4 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Your logic is contradictory.

Uhm, English is not my first language, therefore I won't directly tell you that you got it totally wrong, but I meant the complete opposite.  I think my message was clear, but anyway, let me explain it better here, in case I truly misused the language and inadvertently communicated the wrong idea.

1) Some users above rooted for privatization of airports, because they claimed that they work better than public structures.

2) I said that you can't just say one is good and the other is bad, because both public and private structures (not only airports) are prone to mismanagement.

3) I brought up the private airports in Europe as an example which are NOT better, due to things like:

- reduced operating hours

- unnecessary personnel in the ARO (that can be replaced by an AWOS)

- unnecessary personnel for mandatory served fuel (no self-service.)

- huge fees that the FBO justifies with the above items (Justified, not as in they are right to collect these fees.  Justified, as in these unnecessary services that are forcibly rendered are used as an excuse to collect such fees.) Example conversation that took place (I have witnesses) Me: "why am I paying E. 40 for landing?"  FBO: "Well, sir, we pumped your fuel.  That's a service.  Don't forget the ARO office." Me: "Well, but in America they pump their own fuel, and I don't need you to tell me the wind direction.  I can look at the wind sock, thank God I'm not blind" FBO: "Sir, feel free to land elsewhere next time". 

I hope this sets the record straight.

 

 

[glbtrottr]

(Smiling)…

Part of the pitch made to the Obama administration during the argument that aviation was growing and airplanes would be crashing and falling out of the sky, as Garmin was busy trying to sell the “openness” of their Capstone project, was the IDing of aircraft to enable charging user fees. Remember when registration fees kicked in?

People willingly and eagerly flock to purchase Garmin panels because oh my gawd the features are great….

[cliffy]

The major benefit in efficiency was/will be gained in high density in trail airports (Class

Benefit to GA is/will be minimal except it has proven good for crossing or entering Class B airspace (LAS for instance).

The weather overlay is interesting IF one takes into account latency of the images It ain't weather RADAR!

Safety? Maybe in some cases (and I've found it useful on a couple of cases) but for the most part unless you are scaled way in the traffic is cluttered and confusing when in fact it is a long way away. Just as we found TCAS to be in big iron. 

[A64Pilot]

On 7/26/2023 at 10:47 AM, Parker_Woodruff said:

Yes, they're awesome!

Who wants to go in with me on this one?

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/4241-Birdsong-Blvd-Lutz-FL/23251857/

Trust me, Tampa North doesn’t look anything like that. We go there often, runway is in sad shape, non existent parking, what I’ve seen is old and run down, a few what I’m sure are privately owned hangars that are in better shape than the rest of the airport.

There are hangars on the side that the restaurant isn’t on, and if there is any money in the place that would be it. I have no idea who owns those though, but I suspect that if someone put in a whole section of hangars to rent considering what hangars go for around there and their availability that they could turn a pretty profit, if the numbers work of course. 

I think it not unlikely that it will become a housing area myself, you just get the impression that it’s not making money when you visit.

[A64Pilot]

On 7/21/2023 at 1:16 PM, RoundTwo said:

I recently had a $15 landing fee from a local Georgia FBO and they said they needed my card to put on file. When leaving, I asked for a receipt and was more than slightly perturbed to find an additional 3% surcharge for using a credit card. Heaven forbid they miss out on credit card processing fees on a charge for providing no service. 

Curious, where was that?

Georgia not too long ago put a HUGE amount of money into GA, specifically airport infrastructure, repaving runways, lengthening runways, new FBO buildings etc.

I forget who was Governor at the time but he put Georgia’s tobacco settlement money into local airports, there was a formula, if your town was more than some number of miles from a min 5,000 ft runway, Ga would extend yours for example, it was grant money so there was some paperwork. Bainbridge got their runways resurfaced, Cairo I think got new buildings and resurfaced runways etc. Many towns were too stupid to put in for it, sorry but there just isn’t another way to put that.

It was Billions of dollars, not Millions. I’m sure some of the money went elsewhere of course.

I don’t believe any of it was supposed to be put into airports I’m sure

On edit, maybe it was Thomasville not Cairo

[RoundTwo]

4 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Curious, where was that?

Kennesaw, KRYY. They charge for all night operations.