Becoming a A+P mechanic

[kortopates]

4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The school that @EricJ attended does teach wood and fabric and helicopters.

So does our local school. I would expect these are required parts of any approved curriculum since the Mechanics exams test these areas.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Piston or turbine.

Tube/fabric or Wood or Metal or Composite

Common to all would be basic systems training, such as fuel delivery, electrical, etc

You won’t need fuel systems if you only work on gliders.  But would if working on hot air balloons which are a separate license here.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, EricJ said:

So a 20 yr old kid straight out of a Part 147 school can, in fact, overhaul your engine.    There's an entire class on engine overhaul where you essentially tear down and rebuild an engine (a Lycoming O-320 in my case).

Our instructors pointed out to us that by the time we got out of school we'd have touched an example of pretty much everything, so it would be rare that 65.81 would be an issue.   So far I've found that to be true and I think it's one of the advantages of going to a school.

Can overhaul an engine, but can’t replace a leaky diaphragm and add fluid to a compass if I remember correctly because it’s an instrument.

[kortopates]

Can overhaul an engine, but can’t replace a leaky diaphragm and add fluid to a compass if I remember correctly because it’s an instrument.

Yep, a job for an instrument repair station.
Never mind the tech at the repair station only has a repairman license that carry's no weight out of the place of business but allows the FAA to monitor their procedures....

[Sabremech]

9 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

Mechanics can't actually work on "anything".  A 20yr old kid who just finished a Part 147 school cannot just overhaul your engine.

CFR 65.81 ".. However, he may not supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of, or approve and return to service, any aircraft or appliance, or part thereof, for which he is rated unless he has satisfactorily performed the work concerned at an earlier date. If he has not so performed that work at an earlier date, he may show his ability to do it by performing it to the satisfaction of the Administrator or under the direct supervision of a certificated and appropriately rated mechanic, or a certificated repairman, who has had previous experience in the specific operation concerned..."

So you can do something IF you've previously done it under someone's supervision first or have it approved by the Admin.

That said, there are many mechanics out there who cannot weld, who don't like to do sheet metal work, who don't want to seal Mooney tanks, who don't like to crack open engine case, who don't want to mess with the stop nut on a prop, who don't like to assemble fittings on rubber hoses using mandrels, who don't like to bend and flare aluminum lines (tubes), who are "uncomfortable" IRAN'ing magnetos (OK, overhauling requires special equipment, but IRAN with the standard Kelly kit?)...  I mean, dude, what do you actually do, other than swapping out parts, checking compressions, and signing logbooks?

The good thing about standardized schools is that they follow a rigid curriculum so you know what the students know.  Someone showing up through apprenticehip program is a wild guess.  I am pursuing that and I called the FSDO to ask what they are looking for.  He said the following in a politically correct manner: "if you puff up your hours by washing and moving planes, and updating GPS databases, don't bother drive down here." He did say, though, that someone going through apprenticeship is not expected to know about turbines, because probably they'll never touch them.  He said 60% of the materials listed on the curriculum need to be mastered via experience.

CFR 65.81 is in regards to a repair station where supervisors who don’t have an A&P are responsible for signing off work. The key word is “supervise”. This does not mean as an A&P that you must be supervised and signed off before you can do this work on your own. I had this discussion with the infamous Mike Busch and asked him to provide the document the FAA requires for me to keep with sign offs to prove I had previously done a task. I’m still waiting for his reply 10 years later. I also called my PMI and he confirmed this is geared towards repair stations with non certified mechanics in a supervisory role.

 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Can overhaul an engine, but can’t replace a leaky diaphragm and add fluid to a compass if I remember correctly because it’s an instrument.

It turns out that a lot of hangar fairies are good at rehabbing wet compasses, so that's reasonably well covered. 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, EricJ said:

It turns out that a lot of hangar fairies are good at rehabbing wet compasses, so that's reasonably well covered. 

Do hangar fairies have to be supervised and kept records of their training?

[N201MKTurbo]

30 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Do hangar fairies have to be supervised and kept records of their training?

It wouldn’t hurt!

 

[Pinecone]

6 hours ago, M20Doc said:

You won’t need fuel systems if you only work on gliders.  But would if working on hot air balloons which are a separate license here.

True, except that motor gliders are gliders.

But I can see that fuel systems might be part of a the Engines rating, or Powered Aircraft - Piston or Powered Aircraft - Turbine.

More just tossed out some ideas.  The idea being, that maybe the time could be shortened by separating the areas into smaller bites.   No need to learn turbines if you are going to be at a small field with only piston planes.   If you move to a shop with turbines, you spend some time under direction and add on that rating.

[cliffy]

One item NOT talked about here is that the system is designed to weed out those not so dedicated to doing the work (and correctly) as an A&P can be his own "inspector" for the work he performs. There is a phycological aspect to the training also.  Will the applicant actually "police" his own work ethic? As he is on his own. 

If one is looking for short cuts to training then maybe he will look to short cuts in the application of skills. 

In my A&P school (1965 - 1967) my class started with about 50 students and "maybe 20 graduated, The attrition rate was high because of the training demands.

I have a very good friend who did the "experience" route about 5 years ago. He was required to keep an up to date log book of every job he did in the shop and have it signed off by the shop IA and it was reviewed every time the FAA came to the shop. He is so good I would turn my airplane over to him and never think twice about his work (and I have). 

As was mentioned- once the certificate is in hand it is only a license to learn.  Once YOU do it you will be surprised by the challenges on every job until you get some experience. 

Its no different than in piloting- All the training in the world can never replace experience!

 

[Sixstring2k]

On 3/27/2023 at 8:01 AM, A64Pilot said:

Mechanics ARE limited, you are only allowed to work on what you have been trained for, and an A&P should self limit.

I doubt many schools teach helicopters, or sadly wood and fabric anymore, and trust me modern composites are an entirely new “science” if you will, it’s a completely different animal that most older A&P’s should stay away from. Being ex Military I was exposed to composites, enough to realize how much I don’t know anyway.

Mechanics are also only very lightly taught NDI, I was NDI level 3 at one point and can attest to that.

Think about it, an A&P is HUGELY broad, it’s almost as if your PPL gave you the privilege to fly any existing aircraft, from a 1920,s wood and fabric tail dragger to a modern plastic pressurized turbine. So it is the A&P’s responsibility to know when to not work on an aircraft, for instance I’m allowed to do fabric, but don’t, I push that to the experts, same in all honestly with sheet metal. Last job I had an absolute sheet metal artist, he had no Certification, but with him around, why would I do sheet metal?

So whether they realize it or not, but A&P’s self specialize, most of us of course see and know one that specialize in piston single engine land, but there are helicopter A&P’s and others that mostly do engine work etc.

Way more than any other FAA license I’m familiar with the A&P is a license to learn, it doesn’t indicate an expert, that comes or not after years of experience. Way more often than not there are many un-certified people that are experts in one field that A&P’s should lean on and use. Welders for example, sure an A&P can legally weld, but compared to someone who Tigs every day for a living the average A&P is a hack at best. Saw a engine mount that had been reinforced IAW an STC the other day that I wouldn’t put on a airplane for example. I briefly worked as a contract oil field welder before the Army so I at least know what a good weld is supposed to look like.

A good A&P knows their limitations, so when one says I can’t do this or that, be glad you have one that understands that maybe they are not a mechanics God, but they should be able to point you to an expert in that field.

A&P’s are limited, for example except for minor things we aren’t allowed to touch a prop and it takes an IA to overhaul a supercharged or geared engine.

In all honestly Turbines are simple things, a 100 yr old supercharged, geared Radial is not.

 

So true, I got my a/p from Aviation High school in Long Island city, NY and being doing commercial aviation ever since. Turning wrenches is general aviation to me is a whole different ball game to what have I being doing for 20+ years and is not for everyone, but if you love what you do and you work with someone with experience it all slowly comes back to you. Trying to broaden my experience and get my AI.

As for the the original op maybe this helps you and maybe not and to anyone looking for doing this for a living I know one place paying you to learn.

I find a lot of people always asking how to get started and hope this helps  

https://careers.united.com/us/en/calibrate

It’s just one career path to anyone who might run into this page looking for info. 

[cliffy]

Jeez- There was nothing like United's program back when I went to A&P school.

That's a good opportunity for someone. 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Sixstring2k said:

So true, I got my a/p from Aviation High school in Long Island city, NY and being doing commercial aviation ever since. Turning wrenches is general aviation to me is a whole different ball game to what have I being doing for 20+ years and is not for everyone, but if you love what you do and you work with someone with experience it all slowly comes back to you. Trying to broaden my experience and get my AI.

As for the the original op maybe this helps you and maybe not and to anyone looking for doing this for a living I know one place paying you to learn.

I find a lot of people always asking how to get started and hope this helps  

https://careers.united.com/us/en/calibrate

It’s just one career path to anyone who might run into this page looking for info. 

Nice thing about GA, no toilets and no galleys.  In my forty years only had to fix one pee tube, yuck!

[Sabremech]

26 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Nice thing about GA, no toilets and no galleys.  In my forty years only had to fix one pee tube, yuck!

Be glad as we’re now dealing with vacuum toilets and need to connect a laptop to it to download the poo trouble data for troubleshooting. Yippee! 

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, Sabremech said:

Be glad as we’re now dealing with vacuum toilets and need to connect a laptop to it to download the poo trouble data for troubleshooting. Yippee! 

All of my airline mechanic friends have lav horror stories...

It seems that's what new guys are for.

[Sabremech]

58 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

All of my airline mechanic friends have lav horror stories...

It seems that's what new guys are for.

We don’t have any “new” guys! Mechanic shortage is only going to get worse!! 

[Sixstring2k]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Nice thing about GA, no toilets and no galleys.  In my forty years only had to fix one pee tube, yuck!

I have had my share of toilet horror stories, now I just leave it the fng to handle. The baton has being passed.