1992 M20J Panel Upgrade / Advice

[gevertex]

3 hours ago, Pinecone said:

For checklists, I have been running MiraChek.

It runs on my phone or tablet and talks to you.  With a BT headset or earbuds, you can actually check things off by responding "Check" to each prompt.

If you like an old school backup, it will also format your checklist for printing.

That's kind of cool. How quickly does it run through the checklist items?

[ttflyer]

12 hours ago, gevertex said:

Question for the group. I see G3X supports checklists, but I could not find any for Mooney. It looks like you can create them with a tool. I was planning to copy the checklist from the POH or checkmate checklist and load it to the G3X Touch with that tool.

I searched but was surprised to not find anything.

I use the checklist on our GTN-750xi and LOVE it.  You can make it anything you want with an easy editor.  I assume the G3X is the same.

I'm a big believer in electronic checklists.  NASA did a study and found professional crews made errors regularly with paper checklists and almost never with electronic checklists.  I use them in the Challenger 350 I fly for work.  We used them in the RV6 we used to own on the AF-5600.  And now in the Mooney...

 

[gevertex]

1 minute ago, ttflyer said:

I use the checklist on our GTN-750xi and LOVE it.  You can make it anything you want with an easy editor.  I assume the G3X is the same.

I'm a big believer in electronic checklists.  NASA did a study and found professional crews made errors regularly with paper checklists and almost never with electronic checklists.  I use them in the Challenger 350 I fly for work.  We used them in the RV6 we used to own on the AF-5600.  And now in the Mooney...

 

Nice. Are there any checklist files you could share or anyone that has them? Trying to short circuit what will likely be a day of fiddling / installing them on the G3X.

[201Mooniac]

11 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Since my checklist includes many items before I ever turn the power on I don’t see the point. Maybe if GP or FF had them it might be more useful.

Garmin Pilot does have the checklist function as well.

[Pinecone]

On 4/14/2023 at 10:51 AM, gevertex said:

That's kind of cool. How quickly does it run through the checklist items?

When you check off on item or say Check, it starts reading the next one.   You can check it off before it finishes reading, and it starts the next one.

And if you skip something in manual mode, it is obvious as that item is not checked off.  Each time you run it, it can be run as a new time with nothing checked off.

 

[RoundTwo]

On 4/14/2023 at 12:08 AM, ArtVandelay said:

Since my checklist includes many items before I ever turn the power on I don’t see the point. Maybe if GP or FF had them it might be more useful.

Agreed! My first round of checklists came from CheckMate without thinking it through and I loaded one that had “Master Switch - ON” which was useless. I’ve since built pre-preflight checklist into GP that I plan to use more with passengers during a preflight walk around to allow them to help and generate interest. Once the Master comes on, I use the G3X.

[RoundTwo]

On 4/14/2023 at 11:10 AM, gevertex said:

Nice. Are there any checklist files you could share or anyone that has them? Trying to short circuit what will likely be a day of fiddling / installing them on the G3X.

I can send you what I built for the G3X. Since I’ve got the GTN750 and GFC500, I’ve built in stuff for those to have quick reference while I get used to them. Send me your email in a PM and I’ll send you my chklist.ace file.

The file has been placed in the Avionics section of Downloads

https://mooneyspace.com/files/file/209-garmin-checklist-file-chklistace/

[RoundTwo]

On 4/14/2023 at 11:08 AM, ttflyer said:

I use the checklist on our GTN-750xi and LOVE it.  You can make it anything you want with an easy editor.  I assume the G3X is the same.

I'm a big believer in electronic checklists.  NASA did a study and found professional crews made errors regularly with paper checklists and almost never with electronic checklists.  I use them in the Challenger 350 I fly for work.  We used them in the RV6 we used to own on the AF-5600.  And now in the Mooney...

 

Regarding the checklist on the GTN, when you get to the bottom of the current page, is there a way to auto scroll, or do you need to manually change pages to get to the next items?

[ttflyer]

47 minutes ago, RoundTwo said:

Regarding the checklist on the GTN, when you get to the bottom of the current page, is there a way to auto scroll, or do you need to manually change pages to get to the next items?

It's a touch screen checklist.  So when you've checked off everything, there's a "Next Checklist" button that takes you to the next checklist.  Easy Peasey.  The one thing I've noticed it that long checklists are fine on the ground but in flight, I want my checklists short so the "Next Checklist" button is just right there - I don't have to scroll for it.  But most in-flight checklists are short.

On the bottom, next to the MSG indicator is the "Menu" button.  That's where you can select specific checklists or clear them to start over.  Again, super simple.  Of the airplanes I've flown electronic checklists with, the Mooney with the GTN-750 is the best implementation.  The worst is the Challenger...  But in it's defense, despite being a "Modern" jet, it's avionics are about 25 year old technology. 

[gevertex]

1 hour ago, RoundTwo said:

Agreed! My first round of checklists came from CheckMate without thinking it through and I loaded one that had “Master Switch - ON” which was useless. I’ve since built pre-preflight checklist into GP that I plan to use more with passengers during a preflight walk around to allow them to help and generate interest. Once the Master comes on, I use the G3X.

This is a great idea. I think I’ll try it. 

[gevertex]

59 minutes ago, RoundTwo said:

I can send you what I built for the G3X. Since I’ve got the GTN750 and GFC500, I’ve built in stuff for those to have quick reference while I get used to them. Send me your email in a PM and I’ll send you my chklist.ace file.

Thanks!  PM sent

[gevertex]

1 hour ago, RoundTwo said:

Agreed! My first round of checklists came from CheckMate without thinking it through and I loaded one that had “Master Switch - ON” which was useless. I’ve since built pre-preflight checklist into GP that I plan to use more with passengers during a preflight walk around to allow them to help and generate interest. Once the Master comes on, I use the G3X.

There are a couple items I switch around on the checkmate checklists and lots of different opinions on when to do things. IIRC checkmate checklists have you open cowlflaps immediately prior to shutting down. But I have to close them before securing anyway. So I just close the cowl flaps before shutting down 

[Vance Harral]

On 4/14/2023 at 9:08 AM, ttflyer said:

I'm a big believer in electronic checklists.  NASA did a study and found professional crews made errors regularly with paper checklists and almost never with electronic checklists.

 

While I haven't read the study, I'm sure you're telling the truth.  Be a little careful with the audience being studied, though.  There are operational differences between "professional crews" and "average GA pilots", worth thinking about.  I mention this because anecdotally, as a piston GA CFI, I'll tell you that my experience is exactly the opposite of the NASA study.  Pilots I fly with who use electronic checklists are more prone to make checklist errors than those using paper.

I don't know why this is, and I don't discourage electronic checklist usage, but it ain't a panacea.  I think part of the difference doesn't really have much to do with electronic vs. paper, but rather that because electronic checklists are arguably easier to customize, they're more often to be customized by pilots who aren't actually skilled in the art of what constitutes a good checklist.  That would be another major difference between my experience and the NASA study of professional crews.

[ttflyer]

23 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

While I haven't read the study, I'm sure you're telling the truth.  Be a little careful with the audience being studied, though.  There are operational differences between "professional crews" and "average GA pilots", worth thinking about.  I mention this because anecdotally, as a piston GA CFI, I'll tell you that my experience is exactly the opposite of the NASA study.  Pilots I fly with who use electronic checklists are more prone to make checklist errors than those using paper.

I don't know why this is, and I don't discourage electronic checklist usage, but it ain't a panacea.  I think part of the difference doesn't really have much to do with electronic vs. paper, but rather that because electronic checklists are arguably easier to customize, they're more often to be customized by pilots who aren't actually skilled in the art of what constitutes a good checklist.  That would be another major difference between my experience and the NASA study of professional crews.

You make excellent points...  I'm very much looking at it from a pro-pilot perspective. 

Now that I think about it, I'm just glad GA pilots are using checklists at all... I know some who don't...

[RoundTwo]

4 hours ago, gevertex said:

Thanks!  PM sent

I've uploaded the file into the Avionics Downloads section on MS.

chklist.ace Checklist File

[RoundTwo]

4 hours ago, ttflyer said:

It's a touch screen checklist.  So when you've checked off everything, there's a "Next Checklist" button that takes you to the next checklist.  Easy Peasey.  The one thing I've noticed it that long checklists are fine on the ground but in flight, I want my checklists short so the "Next Checklist" button is just right there - I don't have to scroll for it.  But most in-flight checklists are short.

On the bottom, next to the MSG indicator is the "Menu" button.  That's where you can select specific checklists or clear them to start over.  Again, super simple.  Of the airplanes I've flown electronic checklists with, the Mooney with the GTN-750 is the best implementation.  The worst is the Challenger...  But in it's defense, despite being a "Modern" jet, it's avionics are about 25 year old technology. 

On the G3X, you can use the inner button to "check" each item on the list by pushing it in, instead of touching the screen. This is nice for longer checklists that more than fill the page as it automatically scrolls down one line at a time. Does the GTN do that as well, or is it only by touch. I tried my checklist, which is long, on the GTN750, but stopped when I got to the bottom of the page and had to change pages manually. I stopped there and used it on the G3X, but with a passenger, getting them involved with checklists is a great way to keep them interested. Maybe I need to work with it more.

[gevertex]

2 hours ago, RoundTwo said:

On the G3X, you can use the inner button to "check" each item on the list by pushing it in, instead of touching the screen. This is nice for longer checklists that more than fill the page as it automatically scrolls down one line at a time. Does the GTN do that as well, or is it only by touch. I tried my checklist, which is long, on the GTN750, but stopped when I got to the bottom of the page and had to change pages manually. I stopped there and used it on the G3X, but with a passenger, getting them involved with checklists is a great way to keep them interested. Maybe I need to work with it more.

That's a good idea getting a passenger involved. I can't wait to try it.  Just waiting for a new dual magneto... Any day now. 

[gevertex]

New Magneto to arrive Monday. Finger crossed.

[gevertex]

Does anyone have any experience with the RS-232 issue I am seeing? Is that likely to be fixed by a DB upgrade or is this a missing / broken physical connection. I had understood that RS-232 is a backup bus for the IFR GPS to talk to the G3X.

[PT20J]

3 hours ago, gevertex said:

Does anyone have any experience with the RS-232 issue I am seeing? Is that likely to be fixed by a DB upgrade or is this a missing / broken physical connection. I had understood that RS-232 is a backup bus for the IFR GPS to talk to the G3X.

What issue are you seeing exactly? The G3X GDU uses RS-232 connections for everything except CAN Bus.

In my case I have (port/protocol/connected device):

RS-232 1 /MapMx /to GTN and G5

RS-232 2 /GTN Connext 2 /to GTN

RS-232 3 /Connext 57600 baud /to GTX 345

RS-232 4 /Garmin Garmin Inst Data /to GEA 24

RS-232 5 /Garmin VHF Nav/Comm /to GNC 255A

[gevertex]

1 minute ago, PT20J said:

What issue are you seeing exactly? The G3X GDU uses RS-232 connections for everything except CAN Bus.

In my case I have (port/protocol/connected device):

RS-232 1 /MapMx /to GTN and G5

RS-232 2 /GTN Connext 2 /to GTN

RS-232 3 /Connext 57600 baud /to GTX 345

RS-232 4 /Garmin Garmin Inst Data /to GEA 24

RS-232 5 /Garmin VHF Nav/Comm /to GNC 255A

See attached photo

[PT20J]

It sounds like the installation isn't complete. Usually calibrating the magnetometer is done after everything else is complete. Database mismatches mean that the two GDUs don't have the same database. The RS-232 error could be that the navigator was turned off, or a misconfiguration or (less likely) a miswire. The installer should clear all this before releasing the airplane.

[gevertex]

8 minutes ago, PT20J said:

It sounds like the installation isn't complete. Usually calibrating the magnetometer is done after everything else is complete. Database mismatches mean that the two GDUs don't have the same database. The RS-232 error could be that the navigator was turned off, or a misconfiguration or (less likely) a miswire. The installer should clear all this before releasing the airplane.

I like to be proactive in understanding issues. Agree the magnetometer calibration and database mismatches are easily solved issues by the installer. Just trying to get educated on what the RS-232 issue could be. The navigator was powered on and everything else appeared to be working. I could even see HSI input on G3X from the navigator. Probably just misconfiguration like you say. I'll check with the installer after the annual is complete.

[gevertex]

Flew the new panel for the first time Friday. It was pretty awesome. AP worked great!

Unfortunately there were a few squawks, so back to the shop it went. First one I am most concerned about.

• AHRS on G3X tumbled on run-up during second flight and tumbled again on takeoff attempt. The G5 looked fine, but I got an exclamation on the screen when this happened. I aborted the takeoff.
• Voltage reads 30v when at full power and produces an alarm.
• RPM reading wasn't correct. Read 2270RPM when at 2600RPM while in flight.
• Stall horn is inoperative
• The Electric trim switch on the yolk is reversed. Up goes down, down goes up. That one scared me for a second.
• Speed brake motor now runs continuously after first activation. AFAIK, this did not happen prior to the panel install.
• No speeds were configured on airspeed indicator. Missing at least white, yellow ranges
• Lean assist did not appear when leaning engine in split screen mode
• Oil pressure alert is set too high and goes off while at ground idle (1000rpm)
• Fuel tanks not properly labeled
• Fuel quantity not correct. Showed 59 gal after an hour of flying. Started with 62 gal.

[ArtVandelay]

Is speed brake problem for both sides or just 1?

I had problems with my AHRS and they replaced it, then had problems because it was not configured properly, you will see errors in the logs stored on the SD card.

How do you know which RPM reading is correct?

Hold menu key on power up gets you into the configuration menus, you can fix a few of your problems yourself if you want.