Traveling A&P for a pre buy inspection in Fort Worth

[rubenzower]

Hello all.  I've found an M20E to buy that appears to be well cared for, but I want to do a good pre buy inspection to rule out some of the horror stories I've read here about corrosion and the like.  The aircraft's annual has just lapsed and the owner is an older gentleman with health issues, so it would be much easier to do the inspection on-site than to ferry it somewhere.  It is currently in a hangar at a field in the Forth Worth area.  Does anyone know of a good A&P with Mooney experience who might be willing to do an inspection on-site?

[A64Pilot]

I would ferry it to a good fixed base and start with a decent inspection that turns into an annual if it looks good, if you find something bad well the current owner may have a problem on his hand, but you won’t. It has to have an annual, just spit balling but assume it passes your pre-buy with flying colors, what then? 

As it’s out of annual my assumption is the owner would at least share expenses for the annual, depending of course on how good your deal is, he may have already discounted for an annual.

Its all about the deal

Edited April 13, 2022 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

If it’s been sitting, which it most probably has, I’d want a couple of hours on the engine before I cut the filter open to inspect for metal

[Greg Ellis]

52 minutes ago, rubenzower said:

Hello all.  I've found an M20E to buy that appears to be well cared for, but I want to do a good pre buy inspection to rule out some of the horror stories I've read here about corrosion and the like.  The aircraft's annual has just lapsed and the owner is an older gentleman with health issues, so it would be much easier to do the inspection on-site than to ferry it somewhere.  It is currently in a hangar at a field in the Forth Worth area.  Does anyone know of a good A&P with Mooney experience who might be willing to do an inspection on-site?

Where in Fort Worth is it located?  

[TheAv8r]

Considering it's out of annual, I'd negotiate with the seller to just do an annual vs. a prebuy. Something like:

• Seller will pay to have annual done with mechanic of his/her choice. If contract fails due to disagreements on squawks/airworthiness discrepancies found during annual, Buyer will reimburse Seller 50% of annual costs, not including any airworthiness items that must be fixed. (This way he's not getting a free annual out of the deal)

Otherwise you're facing doing a full prebuy but having an unairworthy airplane at the end. Annuals are more thorough than prebuys anyways, as there is specific documentation on what must be done. And if everything works out, the plane has a fresh annual so you don't have to worry about ferry permits.

[A64Pilot]

A ferry permit for an airplane out of annual is very common and would be no problem to get, assuming it’s not been 10 years or something unusual.

Annuals by traveling IA’s are sort of unusual and one assumes may not be to the same standard as one done at the place of business where ever tool etc is readily at hand, just an opinion.

I’d prefer one done by an IA of my choosing, not the one that usually does the annuals on this airplane

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by A64Pilot

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, Alex M said:

Considering it's out of annual, I'd negotiate with the seller to just do an annual vs. a prebuy. Something like:

• Seller will pay to have annual done with mechanic of his/her choice. If contract fails due to disagreements on squawks/airworthiness discrepancies found during annual, Buyer will reimburse Seller 50% of annual costs, not including any airworthiness items that must be fixed. (This way he's not getting a free annual out of the deal)

Otherwise you're facing doing a full prebuy but having an unairworthy airplane at the end. Annuals are more thorough than prebuys anyways, as there is specific documentation on what must be done. And if everything works out, the plane has a fresh annual so you don't have to worry about ferry permits.

If he wants to sell his airplane it needs to be in annual. Whether this person buys it or not, the seller needs to pay what an annual would cost. If they want to work it out to do it at the shop that the buyer prefers maybe they can negotiate that. But the first red flag that he isn’t keeping up everything on the airplane is when it’s out of annual. He had 12 months notice that it was coming up

[Guest]

Here we go again with the age old debate, Annual or PPI.  Call it what you want, the goal is to avoid expensive mistakes that will cost you.  Open every panel that has a screw and look inside to determine the condition of the airframe.  Then review the logs and documents.

We’ve got two imports from the US on the go right now.  Both had PPI’s carried out in the US and are disasters in their own ways.  The Cirrus needs a new nose strut to the tune of $5K plus a pile of catch up maintenance that the PPI shop failed to find and disclose, it’s got missing paperwork for several mods completed, missing ADs etc.  The other is a Piper turbo Arrow, total time is a guess because no one could decide on tack or Hobbs time to calculate total time, and the log entries go back and forth. Most of the 30 odd STC’s are missing either the 337, or there is a 337 but no STC.  I can’t wait to inspect the plane.

Clarence

[GeneralT001]

18 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Here we go again with the age old debate, Annual or PPI.  Call it what you want, the goal is to avoid expensive mistakes that will cost you.  Open every panel that has a screw and look inside to determine the condition of the airframe.  Then review the logs and documents.

We’ve got two imports from the US on the go right now.  Both had PPI’s carried out in the US and are disasters in their own ways.  The Cirrus needs a new nose strut to the tune of $5K plus a pile of catch up maintenance that the PPI show failed to find and disclose, it’s got missing paperwork for several mods completed, missing ADs etc.  The other is a Piper turbo Arrow, total time is a guess because no one could decide on tack or Hobbs time to calculate total time, and the log entries go back and forth. Most of the 30 odd STC’s are missing either the 337, or there is a 337 but no STC.  I can’t wait to inspect the plane.

Clarence

Why I'm happy to have had you do the annual on mine. THANKS!!

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Here we go again with the age old debate, Annual or PPI.  Call it what you want, the goal is to avoid expensive mistakes that will cost you.  Open every panel that has a screw and look inside to determine the condition of the airframe.  Then review the logs and documents.

We’ve got two imports from the US on the go right now.  Both had PPI’s carried out in the US and are disasters in their own ways.  The Cirrus needs a new nose strut to the tune of $5K plus a pile of catch up maintenance that the PPI show failed to find and disclose, it’s got missing paperwork for several mods completed, missing ADs etc.  The other is a Piper turbo Arrow, total time is a guess because no one could decide on tack or Hobbs time to calculate total time, and the log entries go back and forth. Most of the 30 odd STC’s are missing either the 337, or there is a 337 but no STC.  I can’t wait to inspect the plane.

Clarence

A lot if it has to do with from my experience Canadian aircraft are maintained more professionally, where in the US we have a lot of outhouse lawyers and a lot more questionable maintenance.

If you want to really see an airplane that’s maintained to the book and the book reflects that look at one that’s done to the Brit standard.

But in this case there is no PPI vs Annual debate really, it’s out of annual, it’s not Airworthy

Edited April 14, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

A lot if it has to do with from my experience Canadian aircraft are maintained more professionally, where in the US we have a lot of outhouse lawyers and a lot more questionable maintenance.

If you want to really see an airplane that’s maintained to the book and the book reflects that look at one that’s done to the Brit standard.

But in this case there is no PPI vs Annual debate really, it’s out of annual, it’s not Airworthy

In or out of current Annual has little to do with the PPI. The Annual is really just another line entry in the log book.  By the time a thorough PPI is completed you’ll only have a few things left to finish to call it an Annual, mainly the servicing items from the check list.

Clarence

[A64Pilot]

OK, how about this, anyone can do a PPI, yet it takes an IA for an annual, plus an Annual is defined a PPI is not, so your statement about there being very little difference isn’t necessarily true. 

What you say may be true for your PPI but is not apparently true for all, hence your statement about having two aircraft that just had a PPI and are disasters in their own ways, which I’m sure they had Annuals as well, but there you at least have a basis for a complaint.

When I had my knees replaced, I made sure it was done by an Orthopaedic Surgeon, I did my due diligence to ensure he was a good one. I didn’t have his surgical assistant do it.

I recommend anyone buying an airplane take the same care with picking an IA for an Annual that I did in picking a Surgeon, and as you say a good PPI encompasses most of an Annual, so why not spend just a few bucks more and get a whole year before you have to pay for the next one, does that help clear things up?

[MikeOH]

42 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I recommend anyone buying an airplane take the same care with picking an IA for an Annual that I did in picking a Surgeon, and as you say a good PPI encompasses most of an Annual, so why not spend just a few bucks more and get a whole year before you have to pay for the next one, does that help clear things up?

While obviously good advice read many times here, and elsewhere, what's never pragmatically explained is just how you find a good one! (Surgeon or A&P).  Especially for a new pilot and first time buyer. And, to @M20Doc's point, it's way more important to have someone that knows the make to inspect; PPI or annual.  Of course, how to find 'that guy' is also typically never explained!

My advice is buy a plane that has been flown consistently for the last several years.  IMHO, I think that's the best way to reduce purchase risk.

[Ragsf15e]

Get ferry permit, take it to SWTA or DMax, get good ppi from knowledgeable Mooney mechanic.  That would be my plan.  They are close and good.  If you buy it, have them finish the annual.

[A64Pilot]

10 hours ago, MikeOH said:

While obviously good advice read many times here, and elsewhere, what's never pragmatically explained is just how you find a good one! (Surgeon or A&P).  Especially for a new pilot and first time buyer. And, to @M20Doc's point, it's way more important to have someone that knows the make to inspect; PPI or annual.  Of course, how to find 'that guy' is also typically never explained!

My advice is buy a plane that has been flown consistently for the last several years.  IMHO, I think that's the best way to reduce purchase risk.

It’s tough to find a good Surgeon, best you can do as far as I can tell is find out what their infection rate is (that’s reported) and talk to existing patients, especially current patients.

Mechanic wise I go largely by how long have they been in business at that location, how clean they and their shop is, how busy are they, talk to current clients and how much work do they do on the model,(often mechanics tend to specialize, for instance have you ever seen a crop duster in your local shop?) a few just don’t like Mooney’s, they may work on them but don’t like to, as a mechanic I can tell you that they are a pilots airplane, not so much a mechanics airplane, but except for speciality items like Avionics and sheet metal work I do my own work. Only a very few are good at everything, fabric and sheet metal I take to experts, neither of which has any FAA qualifications, but I do so that works out.

In truth for both Dr’s and mechanics since you most often can’t really know the quality of their work it’s often more of a popularity contest, the grumpy old guy that does excellent work may not be as well thought of as the friendly outgoing younger guy who’s work isn’t that good, so watch for that.

Its tougher to make a living as an aircraft mechanic than say an auto or even farm mechanic, John Deere mechanics make more per hour than an A&P/IA, only way I can see to make a decent living working on airplanes is to be a businessman, that is to have several employees.

I’ve never directly made a nickel as an A&P/IA myself, sure I do work for friends occasionally, but for free and being one helped in my Military and later Civilian job, but honestly I don’t see how a one man A&P/IA shop can make a decent living. Not to disrespect the profession, just pointing out most aren’t well off.

My advice is don’t do what most pilots do, don’t shop for a cheap price, shop for a quality mechanic and just accept he’s not likely to be the cheapest, because often you get what you paid for. A couple hundred $ PPI may not be very good, but if your going to pay good money, for goodness sake get the Annual done too, because a good PPI will encompass an Annual in my opinion, how do you inspect wheel bearings and races without repacking them? And bearings with old dried grease tells a lot about maintenance or lack thereof, but if you don’t look how do you know?

But the inspection should start with just inspecting, if you find excessive corrosion, no point in repacking wheel bearings, replace covers thank the seller and keep looking.

Do not decide you like an airplane before the inspection, and beware of the sunk cost fallacy. The inspectors job is to talk you out of buying the airplane. In boats it’s called a Survey, In mt boat search I had one in particular bust Survey, the Surveyor was apologetic, I smiled and said don’t be sorry, you likely saved me a bunch of money and grief, I took him to lunch. Good guy, but I didn’t use him for the boat I bought, I used a Surveyor who had run the production line at Island Packet, because he knew exactly where to look. First boat wasn’t an IP.

Finally, you be there for the inspection., see for yourself, ask questions

Before I bought my J model I was shopping for a Meyers 200, thought I had found the airplane, but it began to fall apart when I insisted on performing an Annual prior to purchase, that led me to believe something was wrong. I think they expected me to show up, preflight and hand over the money.

Funny thing is most pilots don’t blink an eye at what it costs to have the Lexus serviced, but will try to beat a better price out of an aircraft mechanic, and yet I’ve not seen an aircraft mechanic have a lobby that looks like the one at the Lexus dealer’s

 

On edit, it’s not realistic to think your going to find the perfect airplane, even zero time aircraft aren’t perfect, your looking for things that will cost big bucks to repair, like corrosion or improperly repaired previous damage etc. Don’t sweat too much loose exhaust clamps or maybe a leaking valve cover or other easy fixes.

If it’s been sitting for a long time, say for several months, it needs to fly a few hours, because to inspect the cam for corrosion requires a couple of cylinders to come off and most aren’t willing to do that, so a few hours and inspect the oil filter should hopefully tell the tale, if ANY magnetic metal shows up, walk or pull cylinders.

Edited April 14, 2022 by A64Pilot