Future Mooney parts supply

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, steingar said:

I never said it was a deal breaker, just far from ideal.  I have a certificated aircraft and prefer certificated parts.  Still, more and more of our parts are going to become owner produced or whatever, and sooner or later someone is going to make a smoking hole that will be blamed, rightly or wrongly, on the kludged part that came from no one sans paper trail. And then we'll all be in a world of hurt.  Peak Oil likely won't happen in my lifetime, but this could.  That said it's no difference with any other make expect perhaps Cirrus, and I for one don't want a plastic airplane.  I know a guy who landed his Cessna badly enough to need a new firewall, which is nothing more than a piece of aluminum with some holes drilled in it.  Many AMUs and two years later he had on from Cessna, a division of Textron who gives zero craps about anyone.  Then again, I suppose we can all console ourselves saying we got it better than the Bonanzas, also made by a  division of Textron so indifferent to our plight that they stopped making a part that corrodes if you look at it wrong, is on craploads of aircraft made by their division, and can be had nowhere else.  Right now the Textron corporation, which clearly has no craps to give about any of their customers, owns just about all the nonexperimental GA that isn't Cirrus, which itself is owned by the Sultan of Brunei.  So I hope I can be forgiven for being somewhat pessimistic about this aspect of GA.  Never was much of a Pollyanna. It was not of no reason that I bought a complex aircraft with the simples systems I could find, most of which were field repairable.

You have it slightly wrong. The Sultan of Brunei owns Piper. Cirrus is owned by a national Chinese company (China Aviation Industry General Aircraft(CAIGA) which is a division of the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC). And let’s not forget popular Diamond Aircraft which is also owned by a Chinese company - Wenfang. 

Oh – and Continental aerospace technologies (formerly TCM Continental) is owned by the Chinese state (AVIC). Superior aircraft parts also Chinese owned. Thielert  aviation engines was also purchased by the Chinese and has been re-branded as the continental jet-a diesel

Regardless your point is valid…. Actually more valid.

Edited February 3, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[GeeBee]

On 2/2/2022 at 9:43 AM, steingar said:

I had to source a tach cable recently.  The only way to get a certificated one was through Mooney, and I really can't hold my breath that long.  We did get one, but the solution was far from ideal.  This is going to get worse.

Of course, it's nothing compared to the Bonanza owners, who have magnesium ruddervators that corrode if you look at them wrong and are made by exactly no one.

Can you not source replacement units from Airframe Components in Indiana?

[LANCECASPER]

Nature abhors a vacuum. If there is a market and a profit incentive someone will come up with the parts. The Bonanza folks aren’t just sitting on their hands waiting, they’re providing their own incentive to make it happen:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2021/october/20/bonanza-society-boosts-ruddervator-replacement-design-prize

[Guest]

9 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Nature abhors a vacuum. If there is a market and a profit incentive someone will come up with the parts. The Bonanza folks aren’t just sitting on their hands waiting, they’re providing their own incentive to make it happen:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2021/october/20/bonanza-society-boosts-ruddervator-replacement-design-prize

I’m surprised that no one has taken up the challenge yet.  Mooney must have an idle press and could use the money.

Clarence

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I’m surprised that no one has taken up the challenge yet.  Mooney must have an idle press and could use the money.

Clarence

I think it takes a pretty big press, and most don’t have one big enough. The one at Thrush was purchased by North American Rockwell back in 1964 or so, it was made in 1940’s for “defense plant industries” which was the US Government to build aircraft and other war material parts for WWII.

http://what-when-how.com/the-american-economy/defense-plant-corporation-dpc/

It’s a Monster, to work on it often part of the roof has to be removed and a crane brought in to pull an electric motor etc and the base of the thing goes down to bedrock. Apparently it was installed then the floor poured and the building built around it. 

When I was there we were pressing flight control skins for someone who had an STC for some kind of Beechcraft to replace the Magnesium with Aluminum, but I’m pretty sure that the Ruddervator skins cannot be replaced with Aluminum, to get the required strength from aluminum the skin gets too heavy, we were pressing Ailerons or something. We did a lot of contract work with the Hydro press.

These are the big brothers of the Press Thrush has, it’s I think only 10,000 ton or so? But I’m honestly not sure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Press_Program

Edited February 4, 2022 by A64Pilot

[EricJ]

6 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I’m surprised that no one has taken up the challenge yet.  Mooney must have an idle press and could use the money.

Clarence

I think the certification/approval is the big hurdle for replacement control surfaces.   The reward might have to get a lot bigger.

[aviatoreb]

Don't forget - there is a steady supply of formerly flying airplanes donating their parts to still flying airplanes as the fleet shrinks, and the pilot population shrinks.  It is not a happy thought but it is a source for those who hope to keep flying Mooneys.

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, EricJ said:

I think the certification/approval is the big hurdle for replacement control surfaces.   The reward might have to get a lot bigger.

All it takes is a PMA manufacturer to produce the part IAW Beechcraft drawings, it’s already Certified. Any Manufacturer can manufacture parts, Cessna can for example manufacture Gulfstream or any other aircraft parts unless of course they are patented or something. Now if you deviate any at all from the drawing, then of course it’s going to have to be approved by a Structural DER or similar, but unless the original material doesn’t exist, I can’t imagine why anyone woud want to deviate, maybe the problem is getting the original material in the correct alloy and thickness?

You make the part, your QC dept does a first article conformity inspection and your done.

Other than I believe it takes a big boy press to press Magnesium, I can’t image if there is a market why no one has?

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Don't forget - there is a steady supply of formerly flying airplanes donating their parts to still flying airplanes as the fleet shrinks, and the pilot population shrinks.  It is not a happy thought but it is a source for those who hope to keep flying Mooneys.

Doesn’t help much for electrical parts like relays and switches etc to say nothing of a no back spring.

No back spring is what I’m sweating as I am WAY overdue.

But for many parts your correct, but many of course are already filled for rivets and won’t match up to your airplane so. they have to be manufactured by an A&P in the process of a repair, these aren’t OPP, just repair parts, done all of the time, even major structural assemblies like mainspars etc.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I think it takes a pretty big press, and most don’t have one big enough. The one at Thrush was purchased by North American Rockwell back in 1964 or so, it was made in 1940’s for “defense plant industries” which was the US Government to build aircraft and other war material parts for WWII.

http://what-when-how.com/the-american-economy/defense-plant-corporation-dpc/

It’s a Monster, to work on it often part of the roof has to be removed and a crane brought in to pull an electric motor etc and the base of the thing goes down to bedrock. Apparently it was installed then the floor poured and the building built around it. 

When I was there we were pressing flight control skins for someone who had an STC for some kind of Beechcraft to replace the Magnesium with Aluminum, but I’m pretty sure that the Ruddervator skins cannot be replaced with Aluminum, to get the required strength from aluminum the skin gets too heavy, we were pressing Ailerons or something. We did a lot of contract work with the Hydro press.

These are the big brothers of the Press Thrush has, it’s I think only 10,000 ton or so? But I’m honestly not sure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Press_Program

I’m pretty sure that the elevator skins for a Mooney are just as big as the skins for a Beechcraft.  I doubt it would that difficult to press them once you have the dies.  I know a guy who presses his own corrugated Cessna control skins.

Clarence

[A64Pilot]

17 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I’m pretty sure that the elevator skins for a Mooney are just as big as the skins for a Beechcraft.  I doubt it would that difficult to press them once you have the dies.  I know a guy who presses his own corrugated Cessna control skins.

Clarence

It’s not the physical size so much as the pressure needed to press either Magnesium or Titanium, Aluminum is usually formed in the O hardness which is butter soft and then heat treated (it doesn’t crack that way) and it’s easily formed.

I don’t know if Magnesium can be heat treated?

Pretty sure Auto manufacturers could do it, but they don’t have PMA and probably wouldn’t bother anyway.

It’s been since the late 80’s probably 89 since I toured the plant at Kerrville and Mooney had a small press then. Guy who operated it was a Retired AH-1 driver. We talked as I flew an AH-64 to the plant.

[Jerry Pressley]

On 2/3/2022 at 10:10 AM, mike_elliott said:

Consider selling the "lot" to Paul Maxwell Jerry.  It would have to  be wholesaled for sure, but that would put your wife's mind at ease not having to deal with it when you exit, and it will be fiscally better than hiring  two men and a truck to pay a dump to take it.

Don doesn't have any place to store it all

[Jerry Pressley]

On 2/3/2022 at 12:35 PM, M20Doc said:

Where are you planning on going?  I still need that Comanche air filter box if you still have it?

Clarence

haven't sold it but would have to search

 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Jerry Pressley said:

haven't sold it but would have to search

 

I had hoped to stop in some time ago, but with the border being closed for so long due to Covid I just haven’t made yet.

Clarence

[Parker_Woodruff]

On 2/4/2022 at 12:56 PM, aviatoreb said:

Don't forget - there is a steady supply of formerly flying airplanes donating their parts to still flying airplanes as the fleet shrinks, and the pilot population shrinks.  It is not a happy thought but it is a source for those who hope to keep flying Mooneys.

Yeah but for the first time in a awhile, the aircraft market is *really* thin...

A great time to sell...

[aviatoreb]

18 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Yeah but for the first time in a awhile, the aircraft market is *really* thin...

A great time to sell...

But those are flying airplanes.  I am saying donor airplanes are formerly flying airplanes. Crashes and rust buckets still sometimes have some good parts to donate.

[LANCECASPER]

13 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

But those are flying airplanes.  I am saying donor airplanes are formerly flying airplanes. Crashes and rust buckets still sometimes have some good parts to donate.

I think he meant it was a good time for Jerry to sell his lot of parts.

[mike_elliott]

10 hours ago, Jerry Pressley said:

Don doesn't have any place to store it all

too bad, there are a bunch of near empty buildings at Kerrville also. Let us know what dump you take it all to Jerry.

[RoundTwo]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

too bad, there are a bunch of near empty buildings at Kerrville also. Let us know what dump you take it all to Jerry.

That would be an interesting dumpster diving party.

R2

[steingar]

American Bonanza Society offered a million bucks for someone to come up with a viable set of tail feathers for the V-tail Bos, no takers yet.  Doesn't work in aluminum or Beech'd have done that in the first place.  I've heard some buys did it in Carbon Fibre, but that' more expensive than Magnesium, assuming you can find someone to work the stuff.  Bo owners can replace their corroded tail feathers with corroded tail feathers from wrecks, and that's about it.  Maybe someone will come in to fill in the gap, but I bet it won't be cheap.  

[aviatoreb]

39 minutes ago, steingar said:

American Bonanza Society offered a million bucks for someone to come up with a viable set of tail feathers for the V-tail Bos, no takers yet.  Doesn't work in aluminum or Beech'd have done that in the first place.  I've heard some buys did it in Carbon Fibre, but that' more expensive than Magnesium, assuming you can find someone to work the stuff.  Bo owners can replace their corroded tail feathers with corroded tail feathers from wrecks, and that's about it.  Maybe someone will come in to fill in the gap, but I bet it won't be cheap.  

I don't know anything about the technicals of manufacturing in these materials, but having watched bike builders and also rowing scull builders work in carbon fiber, I am just so surprised that this is not an easy fix with carbon fiber.  Heck the single scull I currently row was in spectacular wreck - it fell off the carrier truck at highway speeds and then broke in two.  And a repairman was able to put it back together so that it looks feels and rows like new.  Straight as an arrow - and still these are amazingly thin and lightweight and strong boats.  Its such amazing material.  So as I said, I cannot fathom why skins couldn't be made of carbon fiber.  Cost?  Meh - a bicycle or a sculling boat in carbon fiber and often hand made.

[EricJ]

1 minute ago, aviatoreb said:

I don't know anything about the technicals of manufacturing in these materials, but having watched bike builders and also rowing scull builders work in carbon fiber, I am just so surprised that this is not an easy fix with carbon fiber.  Heck the single scull I currently row was in spectacular wreck - it fell off the carrier truck at highway speeds and then broke in two.  And a repairman was able to put it back together so that it looks feels and rows like new.  Straight as an arrow - and still these are amazingly thin and lightweight and strong boats.  Its such amazing material.  So as I said, I cannot fathom why skins couldn't be made of carbon fiber.  Cost?  Meh - a bicycle or a sculling boat in carbon fiber and often hand made.

I think it's the certification/testing issue.   Tail feathers are pretty critical and have to survive flutter, which involves a lot of flexing of the material, something that carbon fiber is actually very bad at.   It tends to break/shatter rather than flex.   It's strong, but brittle.

[Parker_Woodruff]

13 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

But those are flying airplanes.  I am saying donor airplanes are formerly flying airplanes. Crashes and rust buckets still sometimes have some good parts to donate.

You're correct.  Salvage values for aircraft are quite high right now.

[Parker_Woodruff]

13 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I think he meant it was a good time for Jerry to sell his lot of parts.

I wasn't thinking that, but yes that's true, too.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

I think it's the certification/testing issue.   Tail feathers are pretty critical and have to survive flutter, which involves a lot of flexing of the material, something that carbon fiber is actually very bad at.   It tends to break/shatter rather than flex.   It's strong, but brittle.

Thanks - that makes a lot of sense.  As I said, my exposure to carbon fiber is all sorts of interesting stressed sports equipment - I didn't mention skate ski poles, ski boots, rowing oars (the poles with the oar at the end), stems, cranksets, and all sorts of other wonderful marvels of modern materials.  These are all distinct though from just as you said.