Panel Upgrade thoughts

[cwaters]

Here is a picture of my current panel. I am starting to think about updating (on a budget) and wanted to get some advice. Currently no AP so that is my main goal. Its a good IFR platform now (I got my IFR this past Aug 2021 in it and feel very comfortable in it)  but I'm starting to fly a bit more single pilot IFR and long XC and feel an good AP is a worthy investment. I'm happy for now with the 430 (non-W) so I'm thinking dual G-5 and GFC 500, but also questioning if waiting on the Dynon system would be worth it.

 

the dual G-5 and GFC500 is estimated to be about 30k fully installed. the Dynon system is looking like it would be about the same. I'd like to stay around the 25-30k mark 

[ArtVandelay]

What’s the red knob by your knees for?

First thing is to get rid of some of the junk in the left radio stack. I’d move it over to where your MP/tach gauges were.

ADSB? If no, definitely upgrade your transponder.

[cwaters]

7 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

What’s the red knob by your knees for?

First thing is to get rid of some of the junk in the left radio stack. I’d move it over to where your MP/tach gauges were.

Is the 430 waas?

red knob is the cowl flaps, 430 is non-Waas

 

what junk are you referring to 

 

[ArtVandelay]

red knob is the cowl flaps, 430 is non-Waas
 
what junk are you referring to 
 

Toggle switches, both top and bottom, and if getting dual G5s, remove vacuum system including gauge. Your audio panel has music inputs you can select, deselect with the panel …why have toggle switches?

[cwaters]

oh ok, honestly I had not given that much thought given I don't use the music capability of the audio panel I always just Bluetooth to my headset (Zulu 3). I could likely just nix those all together. 

 

yes the plan was to drop the vacuum system including the guage 

 

are you also saying move the master and lights toggles to the top of the panel ? why 

[TheAv8r]

My $0.02 since you mentioned you recently got your IR and are doing more IFR flying:

• Get a WAAS GPS. Whether that's selling your current 430 and buying a 430W or upgrading to a GTN unit, WAAS pays off if you're doing a lot of IFR.
• Most people I've talked to (actually I think just about everyone I've asked) has said the GI275s are worth it over the G5s. I have dual G5s in my plane, but I bought it that way, in your case I'd recommend doing the dual GI275s vs the G5s since it's a new install.

I'd consider the GFC-500 to be added bonus points, those 2 would be the most important to me, bringing HSI capability into the picture, adding WAAS so I can shoot LPV approaches + have an alternate be an RNAV, removing vacuum instruments from the picture & that point of failure, plus strengthening my overall IFR flying with the dual glass. Then if you have the budget, add in the GFC500.

[cwaters]

3 minutes ago, jacenbourne said:

My $0.02 since you mentioned you recently got your IR and are doing more IFR flying:

• Get a WAAS GPS. Whether that's selling your current 430 and buying a 430W or upgrading to a GTN unit, WAAS pays off if you're doing a lot of IFR.
• Most people I've talked to (actually I think just about everyone I've asked) has said the GI275s are worth it over the G5s. I have dual G5s in my plane, but I bought it that way, in your case I'd recommend doing the dual GI275s vs the G5s since it's a new install.

I'd consider the GFC-500 to be added bonus points, those 2 would be the most important to me, bringing HSI capability into the picture, adding WAAS so I can shoot LPV approaches + have an alternate be an RNAV, removing vacuum instruments from the picture & that point of failure, plus strengthening my overall IFR flying with the dual glass. Then if you have the budget, add in the GFC500.

I would love to go to a WAAS unit and think going to a WAAS 430 is not really a great idea given its still a 430 and still old tech so would look at the 650 but just not in the budget. 

I was ranking it as my #3 option if budget is there (I don't think it will be) because I don't know yet if I want to get rid of my 430. I would likely keep it and move it to #2 spot and kill the 155 on the co pilot side, that way I have 2 GPS/Nav/Comm units in the plane 

why would you consider the AP as bonus points? The only things I'm gaining from the WAAS are lower approaches and alternate RNAV right? 

 

I could likely swing the GTN upgrade if I did a single G5 not dual G5 and I think the G5 HSI is more important 

[TheAv8r]

11 minutes ago, cwaters said:

I would love to go to a WAAS unit and think going to a WAAS 430 is not really a great idea given its still a 430 and still old tech so would look at the 650 but just not in the budget. 

I was ranking it as my #3 option if budget is there (I don't think it will be) because I don't know yet if I want to get rid of my 430. I would likely keep it and move it to #2 spot and kill the 155 on the co pilot side, that way I have 2 GPS/Nav/Comm units in the plane 

why would you consider the AP as bonus points? The only things I'm gaining from the WAAS are lower approaches and alternate RNAV right? 

 

I could likely swing the GTN upgrade if I did a single G5 not dual G5 and I think the G5 HSI is more important 

I hear you, yeah if given the option, going with a 650 and putting the 430 as backup is a great option, but I understand also sticking with the 430 for budget reasons. I made the same call recently on my 430W since it was going to cost $7k more to go with a GTN-650 vs. just clean up my 430. 

I consider the AP bonus points for 2 things: 1) It's a really expensive upgrade, which means I can get more for my money doing other things than it, that doesn't mean it's not a good upgrade, it just means if I can use that money to get 2 or 3 things done that are of value vs. just the AP, I likely will. 2) Because it doesn't add any true capability to your instrument flying, it simply makes instrument flying a lot easier. You can't shoot a lower approach, you can't fly an approach you previously would be unable to, it just takes pressure and stress off when you're doing instrument flying. Which is totally worth it and valuable in many stages of instrument flight, but it's not a dealbreaker to me. 

Well Mr. Recent IFR Pilot, you tell me what you can do with WAAS that you can't do without it   . It's more than just minimums... a hint, if you don't have a baro-approved GPS, then you miss out on ... 

[cwaters]

15 minutes ago, jacenbourne said:

I hear you, yeah if given the option, going with a 650 and putting the 430 as backup is a great option, but I understand also sticking with the 430 for budget reasons. I made the same call recently on my 430W since it was going to cost $7k more to go with a GTN-650 vs. just clean up my 430. 

I consider the AP bonus points for 2 things: 1) It's a really expensive upgrade, which means I can get more for my money doing other things than it, that doesn't mean it's not a good upgrade, it just means if I can use that money to get 2 or 3 things done that are of value vs. just the AP, I likely will. 2) Because it doesn't add any true capability to your instrument flying, it simply makes instrument flying a lot easier. You can't shoot a lower approach, you can't fly an approach you previously would be unable to, it just takes pressure and stress off when you're doing instrument flying. Which is totally worth it and valuable in many stages of instrument flight, but it's not a dealbreaker to me. 

Well Mr. Recent IFR Pilot, you tell me what you can do with WAAS that you can't do without it   . It's more than just minimums... a hint, if you don't have a baro-approved GPS, then you miss out on ... 

I understand your reasoning thank you for it. 

 

my average trip is 400-500nm, on a great day its easy and relaxing, but on a rough day its exhausting and in a few months that trip extends to about 1000 nm from Co to Ga (Ideally 1 day) so thats one of the main drivers for the AP being higher on the list I guess. 

 

If it were possible I'd love to do it all but that just won't happen. I'm not sure what selling some of the equiptment coming out would "buy back" for the budget for me either.

[ArtVandelay]

oh ok, honestly I had not given that much thought given I don't use the music capability of the audio panel I always just Bluetooth to my headset (Zulu 3). I could likely just nix those all together. 
 
yes the plan was to drop the vacuum system including the guage 
 
are you also saying move the master and lights toggles to the top of the panel ? why 

As a general rule, the left radio stack is reserved for the most used and critical avionics, you don’t want to be leaning over during real IMC flying to work the avionics on the right stack. So that’s why the transponder belongs in the right stack for example. So if those controls aren’t normally used in flight, I would move them. One cheap option is to panel mount a 660, giving you a poor man’s MFD:

[ArtVandelay]

ADSB?

I would move indicator lights to where the engine gauges used to be, see my picture above.

[hais]

If I had to choose between WAAS and AP, I'd pick AP. Makes long XC more comfortable.

[LANCECASPER]

 

Having made this mistake before, I would highly recommend doing whatever it takes to do it once and do it right. Doing it in multiple stages is a painful process. You're always thinking about the next stage. Every time they open the panel they will blame the previous person for it not working right.

This can still be done on a budget.  In that case I would consider the GNX375. You get a WAAS GPS, ADSB-in and out and a new transponder in one box. The older transponders with cavity tubes are on borrowed time. Sell your KX-155 and your glideslope indicators and whatever you're using for ads-b out (tailbeacon or gld-82 or ??). Cut a new left panel and do 2 indicators (G5 or GI-275 would be my choice) and turn the JPI900 90 degrees right, flush mount it and have it display horizontally for aesthetics. You'll have the GMA340, GNX375, GNS430 and GFC500 in the center stack. Take the USB jacks and put them where the ashtray is below your quadrant. Your right panel will be a blank canvas for whatever you want.

It won't be cheap but you're done for awhile. If you haven't done WAAS approaches (or coupled WAAS approaches) you will feel like you have a new airplane with the new capabilities. Hats off to you getting your instrument rating and staying instrument current on swinging needles. Been there, done that, but I don't feel like going back. You will feel like you are cheating with these improvements.

[David Lloyd]

Others say to go with a new GPS.  I agree.  G5s or 275s.  Either.  The GFC500, Yep. Do it all at once.  Yep.  The new stuff is just incredibly good.

The 275 can display from either the GNX375 or KX165.

 

[cwaters]

3 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

 

Having made this mistake before, I would highly recommend doing whatever it takes to do it once and do it right. Doing it in multiple stages is a painful process. You're always thinking about the next stage. Every time they open the panel they will blame the previous person for it not working right.

This can still be done on a budget.  In that case I would consider the GNX375. You get a WAAS GPS, ADSB-in and out and a new transponder in one box. The older transponders with cavity tubes are on borrowed time. Sell your KX-155 and your glideslope indicators and whatever you're using for ads-b out (tailbeacon or gld-82 or ??). Cut a new left panel and do 2 indicators (G5 or GI-275 would be my choice) and turn the JPI900 90 degrees right, flush mount it and have it display horizontally for aesthetics. You'll have the GMA340, GNX375, GNS430 and GFC500 in the center stack. Take the USB jacks and put them where the ashtray is below your quadrant. Your right panel will be a blank canvas for whatever you want.

It won't be cheap but you're done for awhile. If you haven't done WAAS approaches (or coupled WAAS approaches) you will feel like you have a new airplane with the new capabilities. Hats off to you getting your instrument rating and staying instrument current on swinging needles. Been there, done that, but I don't feel like going back. You will feel like you are cheating with these improvements.

By going with the 375 and selling my 155 I would be losing a backup comm/nav right ? Unless I read it wrong the 375 is just gps and a transponder 

 

i like the secondary comm and backup nav radio

are you saying get rid of both sets of needles? 

[cwaters]

2 hours ago, David Lloyd said:

Others say to go with a new GPS.  I agree.  G5s or 275s.  Either.  The GFC500, Yep. Do it all at once.  Yep.  The new stuff is just incredibly good.

The 275 can display from either the GNX375 or KX165.

 

I’d love to do it all at once but don’t have the budget to do it all in one step right now. Unless you want to donate  

 

might be able to swing it if i did a single g5 to run the gfc 500 but then wouldn’t have the hsi 

[Flash]

18 minutes ago, cwaters said:

 

might be able to swing it if i did a single g5 to run the gfc 500 but then wouldn’t have the hsi 

An HSI is the kind of thing you'd never want to be without once you've flown behind one. Comparative value of an autopilot vs. a WAAS GPS depends on your flight missions; if you fly one-hour legs and frequently use an airport with a big difference between WAAS minima and non-WAAS minima, then WAAS would be tops. If you fly long cross-countries and don't often go to an airport with a major difference between WAAS minima and non-WAAS minima, the autopilot is a lot more important. I'm about to get WAAS but have lived fine without it. Not having a WAAS GPS has not kept me from getting anywhere I wanted to get, although it did force me to get creative a couple of times and it did make me wonder a couple of times if I would get where I wanted to get. (I live in California, where the marine layer can be an issue, and I fly into SMO with some regularity, where WAAS minima can be useful, but I've been lucky.) I flew two trips last year that were 1,500 miles each way. Doing those without an autopilot would have been a lot of work.

[Ragsf15e]

This is just me, but I’d do the G5s and GFC500 AP now.  If you’re flying any kind of IMC, AP is a huge safety upgrade.  Sure, look at Gi-275s if you want.  Either will work.  -275s may require less panel cutting and look better.  Either way, glass, ADI and HSI and GFC500.

Talk to the shop about wiring a waas antenna and possibly doing anything else to make a future waas gps easier.  Maybe they’ll even give you a good deal on a 430w they have laying around.  Still very capable but I understand your reluctance.  Maybe some way for them to prewire for a gnc355 or gnx175 back there and make it easier for later.  
 

Of course I love waas, but that’s because I already have an AP and 2xG5s.

[LANCECASPER]

54 minutes ago, cwaters said:

By going with the 375 and selling my 155 I would be losing a backup comm/nav right ? Unless I read it wrong the 375 is just gps and a transponder 

 

i like the secondary comm and backup nav radio

are you saying get rid of both sets of needles? 

You'd still have the Garmin 430 which is a gps/nav/com for a backup. Primarily you'll be flying WAAS approaches which you will like much better than even ILS, which you can still fly with the 430.

Yes both sets of needles, but if it makes you feel more comfortable keep one mechanical glideslope indicator that displays from the 430.. The 375 and the 430 both have CDI's on the screen. You have an iPad. You have a phone with an app. You won't get lost.

[cwaters]

11 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

You'd still have the Garmin 430 which is a gps/nav/com for a backup. Primarily you'll be flying WAAS approaches which you will like much better than even ILS, which you can still fly with the 430.

Yes both sets of needles, but if it makes you feel more comfortable keep one mechanical glideslope indicator that displays from the 430.. The 375 and the 430 both have CDI's on the screen. You have an iPad. You have a phone with an app. You won't get lost.

I primarily fly the CDI on the 430 now on XC flights, the only annoyance then is not having a second comm unit (listen to guard, backup, listen to ATIS ...) 

[cwaters]

11 hours ago, Flash said:

An HSI is the kind of thing you'd never want to be without once you've flown behind one. Comparative value of an autopilot vs. a WAAS GPS depends on your flight missions; if you fly one-hour legs and frequently use an airport with a big difference between WAAS minima and non-WAAS minima, then WAAS would be tops. If you fly long cross-countries and don't often go to an airport with a major difference between WAAS minima and non-WAAS minima, the autopilot is a lot more important. I'm about to get WAAS but have lived fine without it. Not having a WAAS GPS has not kept me from getting anywhere I wanted to get, although it did force me to get creative a couple of times and it did make me wonder a couple of times if I would get where I wanted to get. (I live in California, where the marine layer can be an issue, and I fly into SMO with some regularity, where WAAS minima can be useful, but I've been lucky.) I flew two trips last year that were 1,500 miles each way. Doing those without an autopilot would have been a lot of work.

My current standard mission is 450nm and I'm about to move making that trip (less often) 1000nm. The airports I use and will use often either have an ILS nearby or have one on field still. 

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by cwaters

[cwaters]

11 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

This is just me, but I’d do the G5s and GFC500 AP now.  If you’re flying any kind of IMC, AP is a huge safety upgrade.  Sure, look at Gi-275s if you want.  Either will work.  -275s may require less panel cutting and look better.  Either way, glass, ADI and HSI and GFC500.

Talk to the shop about wiring a waas antenna and possibly doing anything else to make a future waas gps easier.  Maybe they’ll even give you a good deal on a 430w they have laying around.  Still very capable but I understand your reluctance.  Maybe some way for them to prewire for a gnc355 or gnx175 back there and make it easier for later.  
 

Of course I love waas, but that’s because I already have an AP and 2xG5s.

I like the idea of pre-wiring for the waas antenna or maybe the shop having a unit sitting on a shelf. thanks for the thoughts 

[LANCECASPER]

27 minutes ago, cwaters said:

I primarily fly the CDI on the 430 now on XC flights, the only annoyance then is not having a second comm unit (listen to guard, backup, listen to ATIS ...) 

You are correct - my mistake. In thinking this through if you have to do it on a tighter budget, swap your 430 for a 430W that's on the market and then sell your 430. Probably a net cost of $1500- $2000 plus a WAAS antenna and new RG400 coaxial. Keep your KX155. But then add your G5s or (GI-275s preferably) and your GFC500. If you're satisfied with the ADS-B out only  that you're using you've still gained coupled WAAS approaches and better situational awareness with the new indicators.

[cwaters]

6 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Good point - you have plenty of space on the right side. Leave the KX-155.

yeah I was never worried about getting lost as much as a lost comms situation and no backup at all and the slight annoyance of only one radio, 

as you point out there is a lot of dead space there that I could leave the 155 (the resale value is not enough to really entice me to pull it anyway) 

[David Lloyd]

I have had too many comm radio issues to rely on only one comm. One nav, one gps, one autopilot, one audio panel, one transponder, two comms.  Check my panel, PAR200B is audio panel and comm.