1st time Buyer

[Voodoodb]

Sorry up front as I know this has to have been asked, but could not find anything after several searches. Am testing the waters with my first plane purchase. Have narrowed it down to 2 makes and the M20 is one these these. Would love to consider a J but the prices are out of my range, or at the top with no reserve left. Can any of you give me advise as to what to look for in a C or E model. The mid 60’s appear to be what my budget suits from what I have seen so far. What does the FI E model give me over the car by C model. I know 15 horsepower and no carb heat, but…… Really appreciate y’all’s help in advance. And I will be getting a pre buy.

[Mooney Dog]

Things to look for are more features you want in the plane already, as getting them installed later will not be cheap. If you want a new Garmin touch GPS, make sure the plane is coming with it! 

 

The E model is "better" than the C, but some people will debate that to no end. I personally like the E over the C dude to the fuel injected engine and 20 more horses, but the C is an amazing aircraft and most those o360 engine are bulletproof. 

 

My E model so far has averaged 9.2GPH in cruise at 148TAS. I imagine a C would be 10 knots less. I can tell you its better than the piper arrow 2 i was flying before in terms of speed, but everything else is debatable. 

[Rjfanjet]

Stock C I plan 142 kts. Does book numbers all day long.

[M20F-1968]

Fuel injected is better.  Less problems and has been stable for me but my plane is as new as it can be for a 1968 F.  No carb heat needed in an E.

Going into any Vintage plane (unless you know that it has been completely cared for on a regular basis with little to no deferred maintenance)  you cannot be certain what maintenance and repairs you will need to do.  That is essentially why people around here repeatedly say, buy a plane that has been flow regularly.  I took the opposite approach and bought a plane that had no damage history, not corrosion, but had sat in a hangar for 26 years.  I knew going in that everything needed to be rebuilt and planned it that way.  (Finding reliable people to do that in the mid 2000's was a different story as everyone was working, until 2008 when every one in aviation was not working.)  At a minimum you want to make sure the things that you can not fix do not need fixing.  The rest is just time, money and a test of your mechanical abilities to help out when needed.  You need to decide whether you are buying a plane to fly or to repair/rebuild.  I am an engineering minded person so I enjoyed the planning and rebuild process.  But, you need to have a sense of what can go wrong from the beginning and plan for it.  It is much better to expend the effort to find a Vintage bird  that is reliable, than one that will constantly surprise you with maintenance squawks.

John Breda

[Yetti]

Have $10,000 left for after you purchase the plane to fix stuff.

[Mooneymite]

The IO 360 is technically a more advanced engine, but before declaring it a "better engine", check out the endless number of threads on Mooneyspace by frustrated owners trying to learn to start them when hot.

My O-360 starts flawlessly hot, or cold and it was significantly cheaper to overhaul for various reasons.

Personally I believe the lowly C is at the peak of the dollars to value scale.

 

 

[Ragsf15e]

You just might keep the G and F in your search for the C and E.  They are in the similar price range.  G has the 180hp O-360, F has same engine as the E.  Both have a little more legroom in the backseat.

[EricJ]

Finding something equipped to your liking and in condition that you're happy with is probably more important than whether it is a C or an E or an F or a G.   The differences are real but aren't huge.

 

[Mooney Dog]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Consult the M20C and M20E POH for confirmation. 

Not that they're always real world (or equal years) but a quick google for a C and E poh shows at 5,000ft and 24/23

M20C: 162mph/141knots 13.4gph

M20E: 181mph/157knots 9.9gph

It also shows the C is at 76% hp while the E is at 69% hp for these settings. 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Mooney Dog said:

Not that they're always real world (or equal years) but a quick google for a C and E poh shows at 5,000ft and 24/23

M20C: 162mph/141knots 13.4gph

M20E: 181mph/157knots 9.9gph

It also shows the C is at 76% hp while the E is at 69% hp for these settings. 

The Key Number for the O-360 is 46, so I would never cruise at 24"/2300 (that's 47). Anything above 46 needs to be Full Rich. No Thank you!

I would generally run my C at 22"/2400, for 158 mph and 9.1 gph. But may run 23"/2300, for 160 mph and 9.3 gph. 

Just realize that the Owners Manuals were written by Marketing back in the day. My C, at 7500 - 10,000 msl, often runs 145-148 KTAS if I enter everything into my G430W, and I'm often around 8.5-9 gph block time at the fuel pump. 

[Schllc]

Make sure you look at your budget holistically, and not completely  focused on the purchase price. 
I started out looking for my first plane with a budget in mind, and ended up spending more than 3x that budget.  
Not suggesting everyone can make that leap, but buying a “cheap” plane with issues can easily end up costing much more than the one that was 15% out of your budget. 
I wanted something newer, hoping it would require less maintenance and down time. 
I also realized you can’t pull over and call AAA in your plane, and I owed it to myself and my family to get the safest plane I could afford. 
In aviation everything is a trade off, so other factors have to be cooked into the formula to accommodate your mission. 
An airplanes appointments as well as all the individual airplane’s characteristics have a widely varying impact on price, recurring AD’s, tbo, avionics or lack there of etc. 

It is a complicated process to learn and comprehend, take your time and buy wisely. 
Lastly, I have always wanted to buy planes that have been flown regularly.  You will notice sometimes what looks like a good deal sits and sits. There is usually a reason. 
Find someone who is knowledgeable that you trust to help you narrow down your options, then talk to people who actually own and operate make and model you are considering. Too many people in this genre are more than willing opine confidently on things that they are ignorant of, or even worse, believe to be informed. 

[Mooney Dog]

17 minutes ago, Hank said:

The Key Number for the O-360 is 46, so I would never cruise at 24"/2300 (that's 47). Anything above 46 needs to be Full Rich. No Thank you!

I would generally run my C at 22"/2400, for 158 mph and 9.1 gph. But may run 23"/2300, for 160 mph and 9.3 gph. 

Just realize that the Owners Manuals were written by Marketing back in the day. My C, at 7500 - 10,000 msl, often runs 145-148 KTAS if I enter everything into my G430W, and I'm often around 8.5-9 gph block time at the fuel pump. 

I ment 2400 rpm and 23 in. Im always used to rpm first for some reason. 

 

Id imagine our C and E are practically right on top of each other in terms of everything, with the E being just slightly faster. Either way you look at it, these are some great airplanes! 

[Hank]

1 minute ago, Mooney Dog said:

I ment 2400 rpm and 23 in. Im always used to rpm first for some reason. 

 

Id imagine our C and E are practically right on top of each other in terms of everything, with the E being just slightly faster. Either way you look at it, these are some great airplanes! 

2400/23" is still 47, so for the O-360, it's Full Rich and I don't cruise there. The IO-360 has a higher Key Number, so it's a valid cruise setting. 

[Voodoodb]

Thanks all, very good info. My plan is to buy and put back the operating cost for the hours on the engine. Using $120 per hr and 1000 hrs left on engine, I would put away $12k. Speaking of which, what is the going rate for engine and prop overhauls? I know the engine is 2000tbo what about the prop????? Does landing gear have anything of the sort? 

[Mooney Dog]

12 minutes ago, Hank said:

2400/23" is still 47, so for the O-360, it's Full Rich and I don't cruise there. The IO-360 has a higher Key Number, so it's a valid cruise setting. 

Im drawing a blank on this key number thing you're talking about. can you explain that to me? 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Mooney Dog

[Hank]

30 minutes ago, Mooney Dog said:

Im drawing a blank on this key number thing you're talking about. can you explain that to me? 

MP + RPM/1000 = Key Number

Stay at that number or below, while avoiding whatever restrictions your engine or prop has. This provides good speed and fuel economy while "being good" to your engine.

It comes from the MAPA PPP (Mooney Aircraft Pilot Assn.'s Pilot Proficiency Program, taught by the MAPA Safety Foundation).

[Mooney Dog]

14 minutes ago, Hank said:

MP + RPM/1000 = Key Number

Stay at that number or below, while avoiding whatever restrictions your engine or prop has. This provides good speed and fuel economy while "being good" to your engine.

It comes from the MAPA PPP (Mooney Aircraft Pilot Assn.'s Pilot Proficiency Program, taught by the MAPA Safety Foundation).

do you have a link or any other information about this? 

[carusoam]

M20C makes a great first ownership plane…

It also makes a great forever plane…

It also is a great low cost plane to own….

The M20J is great when you are ready for it… but, so is the M20R… 

The M20E is a great retirement plane…

The quality of the individual plane has a lot to do with the final choice… don’t get a low end J, when a higher end F is more affordable…

I ran into challenges with my M20C as the kids became adult sized… but we’re far from leaving the nest…

How are you on these topics?

Best regards,

-a-