Market is on fire ??? M20D (with retracts) unsold for months...anyone know some history ?

[patriot3300]

Can anyone tell me why in This hellfire market this master has gone unsold ?

Perhaps the market is not as hot as advertised ?

Maybe this aircraft is hiding something sinister ?

Does anyone know anything about this aircraft ?

IMHO it is overpriced.

Thanks for your consideration,

Stuart

 

[patriot3300]

Just now, patriot3300 said:

Can anyone tell me why in This hellfire market this master has gone unsold ?

Perhaps the market is not as hot as advertised ?

Maybe this aircraft is hiding something sinister ?

Does anyone know anything about this aircraft ?

IMHO it is overpriced.

Thanks for your consideration,

Stuart

 

OOPS....Here is the link

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20D+MASTER&listing_id=2387449&s-type=aircraft

Many thanks !!!!!!!

[markgrue]

My personal opinion is it is overpriced by about 5k.  Mine is 5 serial numbers older and I paid a lot less  2 years ago 

 

Mark 

[Yetti]

Needs to be upgraded.   looks kind of pieced together.   So much to fix.

[hammdo]

In for fresh annual - I'd want to know how long it's been sitting. That fresh annual could mean 'get it ready for sale'. 
Also very old avionics too. Better to save up for a better equipped plane flown regularly.

-Don

 

[drapo]

LIke others have said, the avionics need some investment. The 1034SMOH and «In for annual» need some more investigation; if the overhaul is 40 yrs old and/or the last annual is more than 3 yrs ago, it will need some money in the engine and maybe other components in the next few hours! 

Flightaware.com says it landed over 20yrs ago... https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N6659U

[patriot3300]

13 minutes ago, drapo said:

LIke others have said, the avionics need some investment. The 1034SMOH and «In for annual» need some more investigation; if the overhaul is 40 yrs old and/or the last annual is more than 3 yrs ago, it will need some money in the engine and maybe other components in the next few hours! 

Flightaware.com says it landed over 20yrs ago... https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N6659U

Thanks everyone.....I get the panel is old and most airplanes on the market are much the same.

I also understand a 30year old engine needs a overhaul.

In my opinion Its worth 30k about like the one marsh air sold recently with a run out engine.

G max bought that one installed a 430 and sold it for 39k i do believe.

This was a 68 with a few speed mods and bladders im pretty sure.

So im getting a much better picture of TRUE values now and that is one of the reasons im here.

Thanks Guys !

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Prior owner]

IMHO there is no way to know the value of a vintage Mooney without getting some detailed history on it and doing a thorough pre-purchase inspection by an experienced Mooney A&P. Any value agreed upon is simply a necessary first step for an escrow to begin- the chance to take a closer look to see if the imagined value is even close to the real value (and with pre-J aircraft, it often is NOT). Have the IA’s who have been signing off annuals have been doing their duty? I’ll say your chances are less than 50/50 that the plane has had a proper annual done in the last 5 years… and you’ll never know until you peel everything back and take a look.
 

All offers on these old planes made should be made with sanity; that is, contingent upon confirmation of stated condition and airworthiness. Perhaps a better way would be to take an A&P with you prior to even making an offer…. The number of people buying these planes without having a qualified person take a close look is astounding. Some do not even go see the plane themselves, prior to buying it! Insanity. Buyer beware!

[carusoam]

Most M20Ds coming up for sale that have been converted to retractable and constant speed will be noted D/C…

If I’m looking for an M20C… I’m probably not looking at things marked M20D…

An M20D came up recently the third of three around here…

It takes a lot of reading and studying to find the right plane… then the real work begins….  PPI…

Most first time buyers aren’t looking for projects… being out of annual for years qualifies as a project…

Best regards,

-a-

[patriot3300]

8 hours ago, carusoam said:

Most M20Ds coming up for sale that have been converted to retractable and constant speed will be noted D/C…

If I’m looking for an M20C… I’m probably not looking at things marked M20D…

An M20D came up recently the third of three around here…

It takes a lot of reading and studying to find the right plane… then the real work begins….  PPI…

Most first time buyers aren’t looking for projects… being out of annual for years qualifies as a project…

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks Guys................I am an A&P with an IA but i admit i have never seen a real m20d in the flesh so fixed pitched prop  hurts this airplane(i think there are maybe only a handful in existance)

Here is another aircraft on the market for a long time,go ahead and rip this one apart(yes its got 1700 on the engine)and basic avionics But in this ON FIRE market it goes unsold for months ?

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20C+RANGER&listing_id=2315736&s-type=aircraft

 

Meanwhile an older C is going to sell on ebay for who knows what with a run out motor,horrible paint out of annual 4 years etc,Who is bidding on it ? It cannot possibly be made airworthy without a huge investment,possibly not at all.........according to the faa it has not been annualed since the current owner bought it in 2016.

Is a well versed person buying this ? I guess it's parts for an RV ? The prop was installed 20+years ago according to the 337.....Mooney fever gone wild ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/324678472157?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D372ea25af5d646c68ecb07b75bee7cd0%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D324678472157%26itm%3D324678472157%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ab4e4d261-d02e-11eb-8fcb-b24a02e3db0c|parentrq%3A1f0b180a17a0a0f310e936b7fffebca6|iid%3A1

 I see several other C models  for 50ish and a few Es around 55 that aren't selling and just feeling like this market thing is mostly hype.

YES I know what buyers are asking but i see the same trend as always...regardless of make or model.

Thanks again for all the advice !!

GO MOONEY !!!

[dzeleski]

I would guess most of us want to actually fly and not fix something for 12+ months before we can fly it. If you want a project to try and flip and have time/money to burn, sure makes sense.

Personally would never consider something this outdated, not just because its old and prone to failing. But also because if they didnt care enough about the thing to not update it for 40+ years what else wasnt done? I would think most people feel the same way.

[Skates97]

13 hours ago, carusoam said:

Most M20Ds coming up for sale that have been converted to retractable and constant speed will be noted D/C…

If I’m looking for an M20C… I’m probably not looking at things marked M20D…

 

4 hours ago, patriot3300 said:

Thanks Guys................I am an A&P with an IA but i admit i have never seen a real m20d in the flesh so fixed pitched prop  hurts this airplane(i think there are maybe only a handful in existance)

 

This one has gear doors which means it has been converted to constant speed prop and retract as @bluehighwayflyer mentioned above which makes it essentially a C. You can also see the Johnson Bar and down lock block in a couple of the interior pictures. When I was looking for a plane I skipped over a D a few times until I realized it wasn't a fixed gear/prop at which point I gave it a closer look and bought it. The difference between mine and this one is that mine was flying regularly and had some updates that had been done along the way.

Also as Jim mentioned there are only three D's that are their original configuration, this isn't one of them. This one is going to be a project involving lots of time and money.

[chriscalandro]

18 hours ago, patriot3300 said:

 

I also understand a 30year old engine needs a overhaul.

In my opinion Its worth 30k about like the one marsh air sold recently with a run out engine.

Not true.  It requires some looking at, but the odds of it being good are just as good as the odds of it being bad. 
 

if it’s in good flying condition I think it’s worth about what it’s listed for. 
 

if it had a couple radio upgrades it would be low 50s high 40s. 
 

or something is wrong with it and it’s worth much much less. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by chriscalandro

[patriot3300]

48 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

Not true.  It requires some looking at, but the odds of it being good are just as good as the odds of it being bad. 
 

if it’s in good flying condition I think it’s worth about what it’s listed for. 
 

if it had a couple radio upgrades it would be low 50s high 40s. 
 

or something is wrong with it and it’s worth much much less. 

 

2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

 

This one has gear doors which means it has been converted to constant speed prop and retract as @bluehighwayflyer mentioned above which makes it essentially a C. You can also see the Johnson Bar and down lock block in a couple of the interior pictures. When I was looking for a plane I skipped over a D a few times until I realized it wasn't a fixed gear/prop at which point I gave it a closer look and bought it. The difference between mine and this one is that mine was flying regularly and had some updates that had been done along the way.

Also as Jim mentioned there are only three D's that are their original configuration, this isn't one of them. This one is going to be a project involving lots of time and money.

That is great news ! and what i was trying to say in the first place. I have never seen a Retract Mooney with a Fixed pitch prop....Thank You !!!!

Now tell me again why it has been on the market for months while an out of annual 2016(cant read the log entry) c with a runout engine poor paint ancient panel etc is going to bring 25k on ebay ?

 

[patriot3300]

Just now, patriot3300 said:

Oh that is right Lycoming says it needs and overhaul every 12 years but its 60 years old so at least a 50% chance its Good ???

That is great news ! and what i was trying to say in the first place. I have never seen a Retract Mooney with a Fixed pitch prop....Thank You !!!!

Now tell me again why it has been on the market for months while an out of annual 2016(cant read the log entry) c with a runout engine poor paint ancient panel etc is going to bring 25k on ebay ?

 

Chris and skates....Thanks guys for the replies.....To me this d is a bit on the high side assuming no unknown issues....I see plenty of C models for 55k and they are not selling.

There are a few e models listed around 50-55k that seem to be much better deals.

[patriot3300]

This is exactly what i'm talking about....yes the panel is narco

This market thing is overblown....MAKE OFFER • $39,999 • ACCEPTING OFFERS • Mooney m20c 600 smoh fresh annual 180 hp o360 NARCO radio 8.5 gph wing leveler auto pilot • Contact Ron Moore ,

 

[BKlott]

N Number: 6659U
Last Action Date	2020-09-16
Airworthiness Date	1963-02-25		Expiration Date	2023-09-30
Manufacturer_Name	MOONEY		Model Name	M20D
Registrant Name	CARVER ROBERT D		Street	4515 121ST ST
Registrant City	PLEASANT PRAIRIE		Registrant State	WI
Registrant Zip Code	531583900		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Great Lakes		Registrant Type	Co-Owned
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	2020-09-16
Status	N-Number Assigned and Registered
Serial Number	154		Aircraft Type	Fixed wing single engine
Mode S Code	52145162		Year Mfr	1963
Aircraft Category	Land		Builder Certification	Type Certificated
Number Engines	1		Number Seats	4
Aircraft Weight	CLASS 1		Aircraft Cruising Speed	127
Airworthiness Classification	Standard		Approved Operation Codes	Normal
Engine Manufacturer	LYCOMING
Engine Model Name	O&VO-360 SER		Engine Type	Reciprocating
Engine Horsepower/Thrust	0		Fuel Consumed	0.00
------- History 1 -------
Last Action Date	2017-03-13
Registrant Name	CARVER ROBERT D		Street	4515 121ST ST
Registrant City	PLEASANT PRAIRIE		Registrant State	WI
Registrant Zip Code	531583900		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Great Lakes		Registrant Type	Co-Owned
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	2002-05-30
Status	Registration Expired ? Pending Cancellation
------- History 2 -------
Last Action Date	2013-11-26
Registrant Name	CARVER ROBERT D		Street	4515 121ST ST
Registrant City	PLEASANT PRAIRIE		Registrant State	WI
Registrant Zip Code	531583900		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Great Lakes		Registrant Type	Co-Owned
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	2002-05-30
Status	Second Notice for Registration Renewal
------- History 3 -------
Last Action Date	2011-04-18
Registrant Name	CARVER ROBERT D		Street	4515 121ST ST
Registrant City	PLEASANT PRAIRIE		Registrant State	WI
Registrant Zip Code	531583900		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Great Lakes		Registrant Type	Co-Owned
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	2002-05-30
Status	First Notice for Registration Renewal
------- History 4 -------
Last Action Date	2008-05-20
Registrant Name	CARVER ROBERT D		Street	4515 121ST ST
Registrant City	PLEASANT PRAIRIE		Registrant State	WI
Registrant Zip Code	53158-3900		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Great Lakes		Registrant Type	Co-Owned
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	2002-05-30
Status	First Notice for Re- Registration/Renewal
------- History 5 -------
Last Action Date	2005-05-17
Registrant Name	CARVER ROBERT D		Street	4515 121ST ST
Registrant City	PLEASANT PRAIRIE		Registrant State	WI
Registrant Zip Code	53158-3900		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Great Lakes		Registrant Type	Co-Owned
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	2002-05-30
Status	The Triennial Aircraft Registration form was mailed and has not been returned by the Post Office
------- History 6 -------
Last Action Date	2002-05-30
Registrant Name	CARVER ROBERT D		Street	4515 121ST ST
Registrant City	PLEASANT PRAIRIE		Registrant State	WI
Registrant Zip Code	53158-3900		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Great Lakes		Registrant Type	Co-Owned
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	2002-05-30
Status	N-Number assigned
------- History 7 -------
Last Action Date	1999-11-16
Registrant Name	CARMICHAEL JOHN D		Street	194 LEVERONI RD
Registrant City	SONOMA		Registrant State	CA
Registrant Zip Code	95476		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Western-Pacific		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1990-07-16
Status	The Triennial Aircraft Registration form was mailed and has not been returned by the Post Office
***** No Deregistered Data Found *****
***** No Reserved Data Found *****
***** No FAA Accidents/Incidents Found *****
***** No NTBS Accidents Found *****
------- NTBS Pre 1982 Accident 1 -------
Qccurrence Date	1967-12-01		Aircraft Make	MOONEY
Aircraft Model	M20D		Aircraft Serial Number
Damage	SUBSTANTIAL		Accident Location	FAYETTEVILLE,ARK
Occurrences	WHEELS-UP		Phase of Flight	LANDING - LEVEL OFF/TOUCHDOWN
Causes	FAILED TO ASSURE THE GEAR WAS DOWN AND LOCKED		Narrative
------- SDR 1 -------
Date Of Report	1978-08-14		Operator Control Number	Z197822600072
Date Of Occurrence			Aircraft Registration	6659U
Aircraft Manufacturer	MOONEY		Aircraft Group Code	M20
Aircraft Manufacturer Model	M20D		Aircraft Make Model Sequence	5870210
Air Carrier Name	Unknown		Air Carrier Operation Code
Operation Type			Stage Of Operation	TAXI/GRND HDL
Severity Factor	OVER 24 MO		Air Transport Association Code	Power Lever
Precautionary Procedures	NONE		Nature Of Condition	OTHER
Segment	AIRFRAME		Descriptive Name Of Part	SWIVEL JOINT
Defective Location On Aircraft	THROTTLE ARM		Failed Part Condition	NUT BACKED OFF
Part Total Time	2,201		Part Total Time Since Overhaul	266
Component Manufacturer			Component Manufacturer Model
Component Manufacturer Number			Manufacturer Part Number	6600513
Ata Code
Remarks	READY FOR TAKE OFF WITH THROTTLE ADVANCED TO APPROX 2000 RPM.UNABLE DECREASE RPM WITH THRTL.FND NUT BACKED OFF.

[patriot3300]

On 6/18/2021 at 4:36 PM, patriot3300 said:

This is exactly what i'm talking about....yes the panel is narco

This market thing is overblown....MAKE OFFER • $39,999 • ACCEPTING OFFERS • Mooney m20c 600 smoh fresh annual 180 hp o360 NARCO radio 8.5 gph wing leveler auto pilot • Contact Ron Moore ,

 

Thanks for the info on the d/c model.

This 39k obo Above is more inline with reality.....Imho

Stuart

[A64Pilot]

Market is on fire, but the more desirable aircraft sell first. It’s not hype.

‘I’ll use campers so as to try to it offend, try to find one, there are very few good ones for sale and they are overpriced, even new ones are sold out. That pretty much leaves the ones that have sat in someone’s backyard under a tree for years, and now sensing a opportunity it’s listed for sale, but doesn’t. It doesn’t sell because it’s not worth buying, even in a sellers market, it’s just not enough left to make it worthwhile.

[patriot3300]

11 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Market is on fire, but the more desirable aircraft sell first. It’s not hype.

‘I’ll use campers so as to try to it offend, try to find one, there are very few good ones for sale and they are overpriced, even new ones are sold out. That pretty much leaves the ones that have sat in someone’s backyard under a tree for years, and now sensing a opportunity it’s listed for sale, but doesn’t. It doesn’t sell because it’s not worth buying, even in a sellers market, it’s just not enough left to make it worthwhile.

Market has blown a Tire !
 

1983 MOONEY M20K 231

 

Piston Single Aircraft

Select Your CurrencyUSDAEDARSAUDBGNBOBBRLBWPBZDCADCHFCLPCNYCOPCRCCZKDKKEGPEURGBPGHSGTQHKDHNLHRKHUFIDRILSINRJODJPYKRWLBPLKRMADMXNMYRNADNIONOKNZDPABPENPKRPLNPYGQARRONRSDRUBSARSEKSGDTHBTNDTRYTWDTZSUAHUSDUYUVESXAFZARZMW

$69,900 

[patriot3300]

Fire is running low on ⛽️ 

[patriot3300]

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/205658875/1983-mooney-m20k-231-piston-single-aircraft

[carusoam]

There is a challenge with market dynamics…

Don’t get caught up in what everyone else is doing…

Focus on what you are doing…

Make list of all the available planes…

Organize the list from best to worst… using your criterion…

See the planes in your budget category first…

select the ones going after and start your conversations… go see them…

The only thing that has changed since 1960….  We have the ability to discuss this from far away…

In the worst of times we couldn’t give the planes away…

Call this the best of times… we can’t buy a plane at any price…

Don’t despair… there is work to do…

As always… be selective.  Don’t buy a bargain, a hangar find, or a hangar queen.

Don’t accidentally buy too much plane… or too little plane… because market conditions are tough….  Market conditions will change. 

 

Same thing different day…

PP thoughts only, not an economist…

Best regards,

-a-

 

[A64Pilot]

On 6/21/2021 at 9:10 PM, patriot3300 said:

Fire is running low on ⛽️ 

It may be, I hope it is actually. My line of reasoning is the quicker we return to “normal” the easier the return will be.

‘However I feel that today’s 100K airplane in a year, maybe two won’t bring 70K. Luxury items fall hardest in a recession, recession is a dirty word, but I think ones is coming, question is how hard will it be?

2007 wasn’t a good year to buy a house, but a shed load of people did, a few I spoke to and said now is not the time to buy thought me a fool, they all thought the ROI on a house would continue forever, it didn’t matter what you paid for a house, in 5 years you were going to get 20% more when you sold. They were convinced and could quote several experts who said it would continue.

‘I am not immune, I bought a house late last year, probably paid more than I should have, but 2.25% fixed rate for 30 years enticed me. I also bought the Mooney this year and probably paid more than I should, but I’m Retired and getting old, waiting a couple of years now is different than it was when I was 30.

But neither was bought as an investment, and my plan is to ride out what’s coming, airplane is paid for and house at 2.25% should be sustainable.

[BlueMooneyOverKentucky]

"Can anyone tell me why in This hellfire market this master has gone unsold ?"

Thanks for pointing out this issue, @patriot3300. I fixed it yesterday.