Key Lime Air Swearingen SA-226 Metro II and Cirrus SR-22 mid air collision

[MIm20c]

 I’m not sure about the money comment as this was just a rental plane.  Curious if a CFI was onboard doing flight training.  This might have been just low time pilot working on his/her training. 

I wonder about the DR killer stigma when just about every new student pilot who has asked about planes lately is pushing for a K or long body. I don’t think it’s Dr’s I think it’s all the easy money.
 

 

10 minutes ago, RJBrown said:

seriously sloppy flying. That is the type of flying that has lead to the Cirrus taking the “Dr. killer” reputation from the Bonanza.

He had more money than sence. He should count himself lucky and NEVER fly again.
 

[philiplane]

You can buy a new Piper Archer for $450k, or a ten year old Cirrus for the same money. Or an old King Air, or even a Citation for the same money. 

Pretty sure money has nothing to do with the competence, or incompetence, of a pilot. That goes to how he was taught.

Let's not rush to judgement here, we don't have all the facts.

[RJBrown]

Here is the flight track of both planes.

[RJBrown]

Cirrus owner lives in a 1.4 million house in the Pinery Golf Club.

The plane was worth over $700,000 yesterday morning.

Rental plane? I don’t know.

I was not disparaging Doctors at all. It is the easy money. “Doctor Killer” is just a common euphemism we relate to.

No mention of a CFI on board. That would be newsworthy.

I may be stereotyping but there is a reason for stereotypes and so far this one fits.

Edit, yes it is a rental. $335 an hour from Independent Aviation, a Cirrus Training Center.

Cirrus training, fly stupid pull the chute? Sorry, not sorry.

Edited May 13, 2021 by RJBrown

[MIm20c]

Owner could have been on the back 9 during the incident…lease back options for rental might have been utilized. 

[201er]

3 hours ago, Davidv said:

I just checked flightradar24 and he was doing 169 knots on a 2 mile right base at 600 ft AGL!  If he didn't shear the top off the Metroliner, he probably would have pulled the chute due to an accelerated stall trying to make the turn for 17R.  Extremely sloppy either way and lucky he didn't kill anyone.

169 knots ground speed may not be an absurd airspeed though. I don’t know the weather conditions but could be a 25 knot tailwind aloft and 20 knots of true airspeed, making it 125 indicated.

[toto]

Up on Kathryn's Report now.  Usually a nice aggregator for these events.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/05/cirrus-sr22-gts-g5-carbon-n416dj-and.html

[DXB]

Rarely having landed at fields with parallel runways, I might not have the right safety instincts for parallel approaches in me either. Extra attention to the airport diagram, awareness of aircraft approaching the parallel runway, and care not to overshoot base to final seems warranted at such fields. The "visual approach" button on my GTN 650 that pulls up a CDI for the runway center line might also provide an extra layer of safety here.  The extended centerlines displayed on foreflight can be  helpful too.

We've all overshot base to final before. Irrespective of his profession, finances, or flight experience, I suspect this Cirrus pilot was no more innately fallible than the rest of us, and I'm glad everyone lived. Lastly, the often dubiously applied concept of a Cirrus parachute "save" might be a legit one in this particular case. 

[Davidv]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

169 knots ground speed may not be an absurd airspeed though. I don’t know the weather conditions but could be a 25 knot tailwind aloft and 20 knots of true airspeed, making it 125 indicated.

Looks like calm winds at the time of the accident if I read the historical METAR correct

[philiplane]

1 hour ago, RJBrown said:

Cirrus owner lives in a 1.4 million house in the Pinery Golf Club.

The plane was worth over $700,000 yesterday morning.

Rental plane? I don’t know.

I was not disparaging Doctors at all. It is the easy money. “Doctor Killer” is just a common euphemism we relate to.

No mention of a CFI on board. That would be newsworthy.

I may be stereotyping but there is a reason for stereotypes and so far this one fits.

Edit, yes it is a rental. $335 an hour from Independent Aviation, a Cirrus Training Center.

Cirrus training, fly stupid pull the chute? Sorry, not sorry.

It could just as well have been a $700k Mooney M20V, although in this case, with the Mooney, he would be dead.

[A64Pilot]

26 minutes ago, philiplane said:

It could just as well have been a $700k Mooney M20V, although in this case, with the Mooney, he would be dead.

 

26 minutes ago, philiplane said:

It could just as well have been a $700k Mooney M20V, although in this case, with the Mooney, he would be dead.

Maybe, I’d bet the Cirrus was still flyable, it looked to be so under the chute anyway, it could be his gear is what got the Metroliner. if it had been the fuselage, there wouldn’t have been much left, certainly not what I saw under the Chute.

‘I think the Cirrus chute is often used for aircraft that are flyable, just the pilot is scared, over their head etc.

For example, had a customer leave Kaby is his SR-22, got about to Sylvester and the fuel pump quit and the engine as well. He elected not to pull the Chute, landed in a peanut field instead, the landing busted a wheel pant, got a local roll back wrecker to put the airplane on its back and the police escorted it to the local airport where they had the fuel pump replaced and flew home to North Carolina.

Had he pulled the chute, it’s likely the aircraft would have been a total loss.

‘Not saying the chute doesn’t have it’s use, just I think not all chute deployments are justified, and the chute is way overhyped too.

Oh,and the way I have heard it, the Cirrus is not known as a Dr Killer, it’s a Geek Killer. Average Dr. can’t afford one I guess 

Edited May 13, 2021 by A64Pilot

[RJBrown]

29 minutes ago, Davidv said:

Looks like calm winds at the time of the accident if I read the historical METAR correct

Not just calm winds but a slight tailwind landing and headwind on the downwind leg.

the Cirrus moved south west under the chute.

Just like I said earlier seriously sloppy flying.

169 on downwind with a headwind.

[DXB]

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, philiplane said:

It could just as well have been a $700k Mooney M20V, although in this case, with the Mooney, he would be dead.

 All of the airfoils appeared to be intact. Neither you nor anyone else knows what the outcome would be in an alternate make. Perhaps you might consider waiting for the NTSB report  damage assessment before declaring the plane unflyable. I agree the best course of action was for him to pull the chute... it’s a shame he didn’t do it before hitting the Metroliner.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Had he pulled the chute, it’s likely the aircraft would have been a total loss.

My understanding has been that if a Cirrus lands under the chute it is a total regardless.   The landing is survivable but hard enough that inspection of all the composite pieces for integrity is difficult.

Subject to correction, but that's been my understanding.

[A64Pilot]

No there have been a few that have flown again, but I think they are the exception to the rule. Maybe they landed in soft sand or something 

[toto]

Right, yep, I think it's case by case.  Cirrus has an example in their CAPS document here:

"He then notified ATC he was going to activate CAPS. His life was saved and his airplane was repaired and still flying today."

https://cirrusaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/CAPS_Guide.pdf

[David Lloyd]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

My understanding has been that if a Cirrus lands under the chute it is a total regardless.   The landing is survivable but hard enough that inspection of all the composite pieces for integrity is difficult.

Subject to correction, but that's been my understanding.

I know of one that came down by chute and was repaired and still flying.  Catastrophic engine failure in cruise flight in early morning darkness.  Too far to make Lexington, the nearest airport, pilot told Greensboro approach that he was pulling the handle at 3000', which he did.  Only injury, pilot bit through his lip.  He couldn't tell me if that happened when the engine clanked to a stop, when he pulled the chute or when it hit the ground.  It has been about 5 years now and that airplane (and  2 others the company owns) is still flying nearly every weekday.

[DXB]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

 All of the airfoils appeared to be intact. Neither you nor anyone else knows what the outcome would be in an alternate make. Perhaps you might consider waiting for the NTSB report  damage assessment before declaring the plane unflyable. I agree the best course of action was for him to pull the chute... it’s a shame he didn’t do it before hitting the Metroliner.

I'm guessing that fracture through the tail happened from the midair and not hitting the ground under chute, which generally doesn't rupture the airframe that way?  Doesn't look all that flyable to me.

 

 

[201er]

1 hour ago, DXB said:

I'm guessing that fracture through the tail happened from the midair and not hitting the ground under chute, which generally doesn't rupture the airframe that way?  Doesn't look all that flyable to me.

 

Didn't look all that flyable to me before either, but what do I know? I fly a Mooney!

[gsxrpilot]

12 hours ago, 201er said:

If no one wants to ask the obvious, I will. Why the heck did tower have the Key Lime cross the final approach of 17R to line up with 17L? And what happened to see and avoid? On base, Key Lime should have been in a position of good visibility to see the approaching Cirrus from the left seat. 
 

Most airports I’ve been to with parallel runways have traffic patterns on each side and keep traffic on the side they are on.

I've flown visual approaches to both of these runways more than a few times. And my home airport, the other extremely busy GA airport in the Denver area, also has parallel runways with both in use 90% of the time. At BJC it's right traffic for one runway and left traffic for the other.

At APA, the runway thresholds are different by almost 2000 ft. So with a tower managing traffic, a right base to 17R should be at least 2000 ft inside someone on a right base to 17L.  And this wasn't the issue in this accident either. One other note is that when landing south at APA, all traffic has to come from the West. The approach from the East is blocked by the Delta around Buckley AFB, the Delta around KCFO, and the KDEN Bravo to the surface.

9 hours ago, kerry said:

It will be interesting to hear the Cirrus pilots point of view.  17L really stands out making 17R look like a taxi way.  I could see this happening to a pilot unfamiliar with the airport.  It happened to me first time at KCCR.  Tower told me the mistake is quite common to first comers to KCCR.  Just glad another aircraft wasn't on approach. 

It's inconceivable to me that the Cirrus pilot would be unfamiliar with the airport. We know it was a rental plane and so there would have had to be a check out involved and likely fairly extensive. Also at APA, land marks are heavily used by the tower. Tower will have you report over the lake, the dam, I25, etc. Any check out would involve familiarization with these procedures and the various approaches to the airport. But I could be wrong. It could be a visiting Cirrus pilot from out of town with a zillion Cirrus hours and they just tossed him the keys.

[midlifeflyer]

11 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I've flown visual approaches to both of these runways more than a few times. And my home airport, the other extremely busy GA airport in the Denver area, also has parallel runways with both in use 90% of the time. At BJC it's right traffic for one runway and left traffic for the other.

At APA, the runway thresholds are different by almost 2000 ft. So with a tower managing traffic, a right base to 17R should be at least 2000 ft inside someone on a right base to 17L.  And this wasn't the issue in this accident either. One other note is that when landing south at APA, all traffic has to come from the West. The approach from the East is blocked by the Delta around Buckley AFB, the Delta around KCFO, and the KDEN Bravo to the surface.

It's inconceivable to me that the Cirrus pilot would be unfamiliar with the airport. We know it was a rental plane and so there would have had to be a check out involved and likely fairly extensive. Also at APA, land marks are heavily used by the tower. Tower will have you report over the lake, the dam, I25, etc. Any check out would involve familiarization with these procedures and the various approaches to the airport. But I could be wrong. It could be a visiting Cirrus pilot from out of town with a zillion Cirrus hours and they just tossed him the keys.

I was based at Centennial for 20 years (the Cirrus ended up less than a mile from my former home) and agree with everything you said...

...except the comment that all traffic landing south has to come from the west. Having landed to the south while arriving from the east many times, I'm not sure what you mean. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by midlifeflyer

[afward]

  

4 hours ago, DXB said:

I'm guessing that fracture through the tail happened from the midair and not hitting the ground under chute, which generally doesn't rupture the airframe that way?  Doesn't look all that flyable to me.

 

 

The plane was swinging under chute at the time of impact.  From the video, it appeared to be in a tail-low attitude and swinging backwards.  Assuming that is the case, I highly suspect the tail was broken off by the impact (probably saving the occupants from back/neck injuries since the landing gear is part of the CAPS cushioning system design).

THAT SAID, I can't tell if there's any damage prior to ground impact.  The plane "appears" to be intact, but looks (especially on the low-resolution video) can be deceiving.

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, midlifeflyer said:

except the comment that all traffic landing south has to come from the west. Having landed to the south while arriving from the east many times, I'm not sure what you mean. 

I shouldn't say "all" traffic. But there is a lot of airspace under various controls stretching to the north east. So my experience has been that coming from the east or specifically north east, I have to either fly south and then join the left downwind for 17R or even if IFR, cross KDEN right over the center of the airport and then an approach from the north.

I have come from the east by staying under the Bravo (6500) but above the grass (5800) and then through the AFB Delta. But it's a tight squeeze.

[gsxrpilot]

14 minutes ago, afward said:

  

The plane was swinging under chute at the time of impact.  From the video, it appeared to be in a tail-low attitude and swinging backwards.  Assuming that is the case, I highly suspect the tail was broken off by the impact (probably saving the occupants from back/neck injuries since the landing gear is part of the CAPS cushioning system design).

THAT SAID, I can't tell if there's any damage prior to ground impact.  The plane "appears" to be intact, but looks (especially on the low-resolution video) can be deceiving.

CAPS min alt is 400 ft. But I would be a little hesitant to pull the chute on my base to final turn. That would be pretty low.