Clock/Timer

[V1VRV2]

I’ve noticed the trend in renovated panels to remove the clock/timer. I’m renovating my panel with a legacy G600. I believe I read that later software revisions included a clock on the display. I’m just wondering if the clock included isn’t buried under menu’s and difficult or too mentally time consuming to use? I’m thinking of putting my Davtron in the new panel for ease of access/use. Overkill?

[PJClark]

On the G3X they're right there all the time.  I use the timer every flight.

And I no longer have any other clock in the panel.

[201Mooniac]

I asked Trek from Garmin if the clock display on any of my Garmin gear counts as a clock for IFR purposes and he said no.  The clocks on the G500/600 TXi don't display seconds.  I presume it is the same on the legacy G500/600 but I don't recall.

[PJClark]

Huh. Mine do on the G3X, see pic above: seconds are right there. Timer in seconds also.

How odd.

[gsxrpilot]

37 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

I asked Trek from Garmin if the clock display on any of my Garmin gear counts as a clock for IFR purposes and he said no.  The clocks on the G500/600 TXi don't display seconds.  I presume it is the same on the legacy G500/600 but I don't recall.

I wouldn't ask. But certainly don't ask Garmin!

If you must ask, ask a CFI or DPE, but first check to see if he's wearing an analogue or digital watch. Best to find a guy who pulls out his iPhone when you ask what time it is.

[jlunseth]

We had a thread on this not very long ago and I think we came up with the wrong answer. 91.205 requires a clock with that displays hours,  minutes and seconds. The FAAs interpretation has been that it must be permanently installed in the aircraft, and that is an airworthiness requirement. But what I remember about that thread that might not be right is that the clock must permanently display hours, minutes and seconds, in other words, a clock where those things would be selectable would not comply. However, there was an AC 91-64A that appears to allow clocks where functions can be selected, as long as  “the digital clock installation was done in accordance with data either accepted or approved by the Administrator“ https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-94A.pdf

[gsxrpilot]

36 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

and that is an airworthiness requirement.

Are you sure? I think it's an IFR requirement, not an airworthiness requirement

[PJClark]

Well, whatever this answer is, by this point there are literally hundreds of panels like mine that have no clock other than on the face of a touchscreen...all legally signed off and documented.  How would anyone anywhere un-sign them all off and say they're suddenly either not airworthy or not IFR certified?

[AerostarDriver]

From what I have learned just because someone signed off on it doesn't mean it is legal... That being said, I just installed an AV-20 as a clock as my airplane had none.

[carusoam]

It would be fun... having the big color wide screen...

1) use it to demonstrate timed turns...

2) use it for a VOR approach timing the final leg...

3) use it for your departure clearance, off the ground by X minutes after the hour... time given in Zulu...

With all that nav power, what do you usually use the clock and timer for?

Best regards,

-a-

[PJClark]

Exactly.

What I use the timer for:  the Rocket recommends you start cooling the engine before descent by reducting power 1" MP every minute. So I start the timer with the first 1" reduction, and look at it when I can and as long as at least a minute has gone by I pull another inch until I'm at 25" and 2200-2300 rpm....now screaming downhill  at 500 fpm and north of 200 KTAS. Glorious.

Then I reset it after landing and let the turbo cool at idle for approx 5 minutes, eyeballing the "credit" I get for pattern time at low power setting, then shut down.

timed turns? VOR approach?  Oh that last one--easy the time is always there at the bottom of my screen like a.....clock, would you say?  

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, 201Mooniac said:

I asked Trek from Garmin if the clock display on any of my Garmin gear counts as a clock for IFR purposes and he said no.  The clocks on the G500/600 TXi don't display seconds.  I presume it is the same on the legacy G500/600 but I don't recall.

The timers on the GTNs display seconds and can be reached in either a couple of taps or a couple of knob turns with the latest software update to the GTN Xi.

When I got my instrument rating a clock was needed to time some approaches from the FAF to the MAP.  With today's GPS approaches to most airports in the country, when has there been a need for timing?  I think the FARs need to be updated to remove that instrument requirement.

[201Mooniac]

18 minutes ago, donkaye said:

The timers on the GTNs display seconds and can be reached in either a couple of taps or a couple of knob turns with the latest software update to the GTN Xi.

When I got my instrument rating a clock was needed to time some approaches from the FAF to the MAP.  With today's GPS approaches to most airports in the country, when has there been a need for timing?  I think the FARs need to be updated to remove that instrument requirement.

I completely agree, I haven't timed an approach in years.  This was only a statement of legality, not of practicality.

[gsxrpilot]

The FAR/AIM is like the Bible, there are as many interpretations as there are people reading it, and all of them swear they have the right one.

The clock in my panel is on the screen of my IFD540 GPS. When I took my Instrument check ride in I think 2009, I had an egg timer Velcro'd to the panel. I had to demonstrate a timed approach. The DPE had no problem approving the Cherokee 140 I was flying, and signed my certificate.

[jlunseth]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

Are you sure? I think it's an IFR requirement, not an airworthiness requirement

Yup your right.

[StevenL757]

1 minute ago, jlunseth said:

Yup your right.

Correct.  It is addressed under 14 CFR 91.205 (d)(6).  Required under IFR flight, not VFR.