GTN 650/750 approach

[rotorman]

If I have a flight plan loaded with the last waypoint before the destination airport being the FAF, and prior to reaching the FAF I load the approach, will the GTN automatically activate the approach upon reaching the FAF or do I have to do that manually?  

[carusoam]

Taking bets....

The answer to this question will arrive in about five minutes or less....

From right now!

 

If not, @midlifeflyer is really good with technology and FAR questions...

Best regards,

-a-

[David Lloyd]

Bet you could find out using the Garmin trainer.  Bet you couldn't do it in 5 minutes or less....

From right now!

[rotorman]

Just now, David Lloyd said:

Bet you could find out using the Garmin trainer.  Bet you couldn't do it in 5 minutes or less....

From right now!

The trainer will not active the approach. But I seem to have mixed results when I try it on the airplane. I can't really figure out what criteria is absent when it does not load automatically.

[DXB]

I've always done it manually, whether getting VTF or sent to an IAF.  If sent to an IF, I activate the approach for a legit IAF and then hit direct to the IF in the flight plan. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

You need to see "Magenta inside the approach" on the Flight Plan page --

If for example your Flight plan page looks like this

• JUGMO  
• KMTN

RNAV GPS 33 Approach

• JUGMO
• CINDI
• RWY33

and you are headed to the first JUGMO intersection in that list, no, the approach won't activate or sequence (at least not until after first proceeding to KMTN, then back to JUGMO). 

If instead your flight plan page looks like this

• JUGMO
• KMTN

RNAV GPS 33 Approach

• JUGMO
• CINDI
• RWY33

where the active next waypoint is the second JUGMO ("inside the approach") then yes, the GTN750 will sequence to the RNAV approach. 

 

{Unless of course you fly east of the cone of confusion on an odd-numbered day, in which case the back course localizer will be active} 

[David Lloyd]

Uhh, yeah, what Jerry said. If you have the iaf then destination in the flight plan, and then load the approach, it won't auto activate.  If you load the approach in between the iaf and destination, it will.

I watch a video that basically said never load an approach unless you know for certain the routing ATC is going to give you is the whole approach.  I always get near, then pull up the approach, vectors, activate.

But I'm no expert with the magic box.

[carusoam]

Go MS!

1) The question is about the automatic aspect of the approach activation...

2) We got answers incredibly quickly...

3) Some with how to find out...

4) Some with how I do this from experience... as recent as this morning...

5) One from a guy with professional navigation hardware experience...

Saturday around MS is amazing...

-a-

[midlifeflyer]

"Loading the approach" doesn't activate it. Going direct to a fix on the approach or activating a leg of the approach activates it, "I just happened to go past  it on the way to the active waypoint airport" does not.

if you press "activate the approach," it will bring you to the IAF  you chose when you loaded it, even if it's behind you.

[Ragsf15e]

To the OP, going directly to the FAF won’t activate it because that’s not a legitimate way to start an approach.  Using the VTF function, the box draws the extended final course out from the faf assuming atc will vector you to intercept it.  When you activate vtf, your steer point changes to the faf but horizontal guidance is there to intercept the extended final course.

However, as others stated above, loading an approach and steering to an IAF or IF will activate the approach. Or if you load the approach previously and hit activate, it will make your steering direct to your chosen iaf from when you loaded it. Clear as mud?

[PT20J]

Here’s a pretty good explanation:

Flying an ApproachwithGTN750.pdf

[Andy95W]

Skip, I have a Garmin GPS 175 and the methodology is the same.  Thanks for posting that PDF.

It makes you wonder, with these new navigators- everyone says to not activate vectors to final, and there’s really no reason to do so.  So why does Garmin keep including that as an option, since it just confuses the process?

[larrynimmo]

8 hours ago, PT20J said:

Here’s a pretty good explanation:

Flying an ApproachwithGTN750.pdf 3.87 MB · 13 downloads

I learned something new ...I did learn early on to enter the full sequence and not do Vectors...I never realized that you could then sequence a vector in the middle by touching the arrow...I will be practicing this

[midlifeflyer]

38 minutes ago, larrynimmo said:

I learned something new ...I did learn early on to enter the full sequence and not do Vectors...I never realized that you could then sequence a vector in the middle by touching the arrow...I will be practicing this

Im not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying you didn't know about activating a leg or was it something else?

And yes, Bruce does great stuff.

[larrynimmo]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Im not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying you didn't know about activating a leg or was it something else?

And yes, Bruce does great stuff.

I have always highlighted waypoints...but never did I touch an “arrow” in between the waypoints

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, larrynimmo said:

I have always highlighted waypoints...but never did I touch an “arrow” in between the waypoints

I'm sorry Larry. I must be more dense than usual today. I have no idea what "arrow" you are talking about. On the flight plan the only "arrow" I see related to waypoints is the magenta arrow which identifies the currently active waypoint or leg. But you don't touch those, you touch the waypoints with exactly the same results as if there was no arrow at all. Do you have a page reference for Bruce's pdf?

[Ragsf15e]

15 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Skip, I have a Garmin GPS 175 and the methodology is the same.  Thanks for posting that PDF.

It makes you wonder, with these new navigators- everyone says to not activate vectors to final, and there’s really no reason to do so.  So why does Garmin keep including that as an option, since it just confuses the process?

Do you mean not LOADING vtf or not ACTIVATING it?  I typically load (and teach) the whole approach from an iaf that is along my route, but when they start getting me vtf, I will then activate vtf.  If you load the whole approach, you have the option to activate either vtf or the whole thing.  If you load vtf, that’s all you can activate.

You probably won’t be sent to an iaf when expecting vectors, but sometimes they will send you to an IF to start from there.  If you loaded the whole thing, you’ll likely already have that IF ready.

[donkaye]

I think the thing to remember in the Garmin Universe is that the enroute flight plan waypoints and the approach waypoints can be considered to be in 2 separate boxes with the approach box AFTER the enroute box.  If you are flying waypoints in the enroute box and have a dual waypoint in the approach box, you'll won't transition to the approach box when you cross that waypoint in the enroute box unless it's the last waypoint in that box. You will need to cross all waypoints in the enroute box first, then automatically proceed to the approach box.  That is usually undesirable.

An approach gets activated by going directly to any waypoint in the approach box.

There are 3 ways to activate an approach: 1. Cross all the waypoints in the enroute box and then automatically go to the first waypoint in the approach box (Undesireable usually because you would go to the airport first and then back out to an IAF).  2. Select "Activate the approach" in the menu which sends you directly to the first waypoint in the approach box.  3. Highlight the first waypoint in the approach box, and press the Direct To button.  As part of 3, you could also select ANY waypoint in the approach box and the approach is activated.  Again activating an approach just means you are operating in the approach box.

BTW, Loading an approach just means you are inserting the approach box into the overall flight plan after the enroute box with no activation.

[Jim Peace]

The reason why there are so many questions and only some answers on this topic is that it was not designed by professional pilots. They do not even ask pro pilots how they can make it better so as to be totally intuitive.  

I have had my GTN650 now for about three years and I still cant tell you exactly how I should program it.  I have the trainer to try things out but its a drag....

I still dont know how to fly a star that hooks directly up to an RNAV approach.  Will I have to activate the approach at some point or will it fly it? Who knows...

On a real box whatever leg is in the FLT PLN page the box will fly.  You cant say that about the GTN.....

[midlifeflyer]

36 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Do you mean not LOADING vtf or not ACTIVATING it?  I typically load (and teach) the whole approach from an iaf that is along my route, but when they start getting me vtf, I will then activate vtf.

I guess you haven't yet come across the situation where they start vectoring you and then give you a fix to go to. BTDT a number of times. The first time I saw that, about 10 years ago, was when I learned not to load it.  With a GNS you are literally reloading the approach from scratch during the highest workload period. Maybe a little easier wit a GTN or G1000. But because of that many teach neither loading or activating it - ever.  "Activate leg" is the preferred alternative. It's not a panacea but it works in every situation VTF does and more. 

I'm not that strict. I think there is little risk in activating VFT when you get that final intercept and the approach clearance. Of course, even then, if you have to break it off or go missed to try again, many would say it is so much easier to reload the approach by going to the flight plan and tapping a waypoint than starting over. Of course, if it's a T, they just might send you to the other side of it than you originally loaded, so I'm not that convinced. 

 

[carusoam]

Don,

Thanks for the details... that clears things up immensely...

The terminology goes back in time to at least the mid 90s on BKs KLN series...

1) The terminology doesn’t match what Jim is expecting as a pro pilot...

2) the terminology doesn’t help me as a PP...

But as a CFII, with a few sentences... you have bridged that gap incredibly well... 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[midlifeflyer]

42 minutes ago, donkaye said:

An approach gets activated by going directly to any waypoint in the approach box.

...or activating a leg in the approach box.

That pretty much answers 99% of the questions I see.

[Ragsf15e]

4 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I guess you haven't yet come across the situation where they start vectoring you and then give you a fix to go to. BTDT a number of times. The first time I saw that, about 10 years ago, was when I learned not to load it.  With a GNS you are literally reloading the approach from scratch during the highest workload period. Maybe a little easier wit a GTN or G1000. But because of that many teach neither loading or activating it - ever.  "Activate leg" is the preferred alternative. It's not a panacea but it works in every situation VTF does and more. 

I'm not that strict. I think there is little risk in activating VFT when you get that final intercept and the approach clearance. Of course, even then, if you have to break it off or go missed to try again, many would say it is so much easier to reload the approach by going to the flight plan and tapping a waypoint than starting over. Of course, if it's a T, they just might send you to the other side of it than you originally loaded, so I'm not that convinced. 

 

Yeah, fair enough.  When you load the full approach you are loading something that you don’t think will happen but could happen.  You might guess wrong.  I would be pretty hesitant not to load or activate anything just because you might get something unexpected and then have to reload.  Here’s why... when I load the approach during cruise after getting atis, I can go through it slowly and carefully check the waypoints, decision altitude, etc.  On an ILS you also need to double check the loc frequency it populated.  I typically activate VTF as soon as I start getting vectors so I can get dme to the faf and double check the course setting and freq.

You are 100% right that there may be a reload in there if the plan changes, but I’d rather not ensure that I have to load it every time right before intercepting final.  There are many ways that work depending on our preferences.

[Jim Peace]

So if I am flying a STAR that hooks directly up to an RNAV approach do I have to activate anything and if so when?...if I activate it too early will it take me off of the STAR and directly to the IAF ir IF?.....why should I have these questions years after ownership...?

[midlifeflyer]

21 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

So if I am flying a STAR that hooks directly up to an RNAV approach do I have to activate anything and if so when?...if I activate it too early will it take me off of the STAR and directly to the IAF ir IF?.....why should I have these questions years after ownership...?

Didn't @donkaye's post answer your question? If not, do you have an example?