1984 Mooney M20J SPECIAL EDITION AUCTION

[glbtrottr]

41k?


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[Gubni]

Does anyone else find it odd that the repair of a wing is $26,000?

[David Lloyd]

Temporary repair on site, ferry flight from Long Island to TN for permanent repair.  Looks like it include a tank resale under that new wing skin. Then refusal to pay.  No, other than an even number, I don't see anything odd.

[carusoam]

On 12/22/2020 at 11:21 AM, Gubni said:

Does anyone else find it odd that the repair of a wing is $26,000?

Welcome aboard Gubni...

yes and no... or know

Everyone finds it odd that things in aviation cost so much...

The important part, once you have paid that much for a proper repair... you are good to fly for decades more...

The cool things about wings... they don’t wear out like engines do...  or fade like paint...

Have you seen the cost to paint an airplane?  Tons of surface area to cover, and both sides...

 

One thing that makes no sense... there are complete Mooneys that have been sold for the same price... as a wing repair...   

Whole pre-flown planes that don’t cost as much as a new wing from the factory... 

Important note on economics.... you can buy a used plane that flys as fast and far as a new plane....  

but to maintain it... or use it... the use costs are nearly the same.... 

See if you can find the cost of buying a brand new wing.... then installing that...

 

my first encounter with similar economics... was some plane mods that were being sold... a faster cowling for a Mooney cost as much as a brand new car... this was 30 years ago...

When it comes to who can afford this type of work... very often, a plane used to carry people to work places are paid out of corporate budgets...

if it is a repair of a private plane, it is important to keep your insurance paid...

PP thoughts about Aviation economics... for all planes not just Mooneys...

Best regards,

-a-

[Gubni]

I was thinking about it from a time and materials standpoint. I know that aluminum isn't cheap but let's say he spent $1,000 on a sheet of aluminum. Let's say miscellaneous rivets supports and maybe other such was another $2,000. let's also just assume that this is the best mechanic in the world and he charges $200 an hour. Let's say that this took him 20 hours to complete. That's $11,000. 

I feel like these numbers are drastically exaggerated on the high end. Realistically I think materials would be less than $1000 and a mechanic would charge much less than $200 an hour.

So what I'd really be interested in seeing is a detailed bill of how they come up with that much money. Maybe they added $300 a day for storage?

[ArtVandelay]

I was thinking about it from a time and materials standpoint. I know that aluminum isn't cheap but let's say he spent $1,000 on a sheet of aluminum. Let's say miscellaneous rivets supports and maybe other such was another $2,000. let's also just assume that this is the best mechanic in the world and he charges $200 an hour. Let's say that this took him 20 hours to complete. That's $11,000. 
I feel like these numbers are drastically exaggerated on the high end. Realistically I think materials would be less than $1000 and a mechanic would charge much less than $200 an hour.
So what I'd really be interested in seeing is a detailed bill of how they come up with that much money. Maybe they added $300 a day for storage?

20 hours? Be way more than that. And if the rib(s) were damaged you’d spend 20 hours in disassembly alone, lots of rivets to drill out.
I’m assuming it wasn’t simply hangar rash.
Add more if fuel tanks are involved.
Add more if stall horn was damaged. I think the part is $1500.
Add more if stall strip section was damaged.
Add a lot more if flaps or ailerons was damaged.
Add paint and I assume AP will need to test fly the plane.

[Cruiser]

4 hours ago, Gubni said:

I was thinking about it from a time and materials standpoint. I know that aluminum isn't cheap but let's say he spent $1,000 on a sheet of aluminum. Let's say miscellaneous rivets supports and maybe other such was another $2,000. let's also just assume that this is the best mechanic in the world and he charges $200 an hour. Let's say that this took him 20 hours to complete. That's $11,000. 

I feel like these numbers are drastically exaggerated on the high end. Realistically I think materials would be less than $1000 and a mechanic would charge much less than $200 an hour.

So what I'd really be interested in seeing is a detailed bill of how they come up with that much money. Maybe they added $300 a day for storage?

if it were that easy/cheap to fix damaged airplanes, our insurance rates would be much, much lower.

[takair]

4 hours ago, Gubni said:

I was thinking about it from a time and materials standpoint. I know that aluminum isn't cheap but let's say he spent $1,000 on a sheet of aluminum. Let's say miscellaneous rivets supports and maybe other such was another $2,000. let's also just assume that this is the best mechanic in the world and he charges $200 an hour. Let's say that this took him 20 hours to complete. That's $11,000. 

I feel like these numbers are drastically exaggerated on the high end. Realistically I think materials would be less than $1000 and a mechanic would charge much less than $200 an hour.

So what I'd really be interested in seeing is a detailed bill of how they come up with that much money. Maybe they added $300 a day for storage?

Beyond what others have suggested, this story also starts in New York, as I recall....so the repair was done twice, temporary repair to ferry the plane and second repair.  I suspect Mooney skins and parts may have been used, so that would be more money.  Also, logistics of repair....travel...perhaps multiple times, hotels, meals, fuel, hangar rental in New York.  I keep looking at project planes and most of the time it is the logistics that finally scare me away.  It does not add to the value of the plane, but sure drives up the cost.  In the end, the company has to make it worth their time too...it is one reason there are so many abandoned airplanes at random airports.  Easier to scrap than to fly out.  So, yes, it is a lot of money, but when I look at it from the perspective of a business, it starts to make sense.

[Alan Fox]

I looked at that Plane 2 years ago , If you think it took 20 hours to repair , you are a stone idiot ,  It was a minimum 200 hour job...( to do it right , replacing the two skins)   I figured it at a 25K repair , when I looked at it , That being said , the aircraft is a total rat , needs paint , and a full interior , also needs an avionics makeover... Also take into consideration , that it sat outside at Republic airport on long island , you can guarantee it has corrosion issues.... 

[eman1200]

It’s too bad all these details didn’t surface BEFORE someone bought it. It’s kinda helpful information.

[carusoam]

5 hours ago, eman1200 said:

It’s too bad all these details didn’t surface BEFORE someone bought it. It’s kinda helpful information.

There is probably a whole thread regarding that plane prior... there are plenty of details for anyone that looks...

It helps to have really strong searching skills...

Buying a plane with major work recently done is definitely not for amateurs....

Can I get a warranty with that, please?

In the end... barring having good search skills... reading the logs and PPIs are lines of defense for such purchases...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[eman1200]

19 hours ago, carusoam said:

There is probably a whole thread regarding that plane prior... there are plenty of details for anyone that looks...

It helps to have really strong searching skills...

Buying a plane with major work recently done is definitely not for amateurs....

Can I get a warranty with that, please?

In the end... barring having good search skills... reading the logs and PPIs are lines of defense for such purchases...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

there IS, or there is PROBABLY?  which is it?

[NJMac]

On 1/9/2021 at 8:45 AM, eman1200 said:

It’s too bad all these details didn’t surface BEFORE someone bought it. It’s kinda helpful information.

Did you end up purchasing this one?

[eman1200]

1 hour ago, NJMac said:

Did you end up purchasing this one?

nope

[NJMac]

11 hours ago, eman1200 said:

nope

Then why are you acting indignant with what data alan chooses to share and when?  

[eman1200]

1 hour ago, NJMac said:

Then why are you acting indignant with what data alan chooses to share and when?  

I'm sorry you misinterpreted what I said in such a way.  I simply stated INFORMATION is good to have for WHOEVER may be interested in a plane purchase.  are you saying it's bad for someone to have all available information?  

[David Lloyd]

Anyone looking to purchase any airplane at a courthouse to satisfy a $26,000 mechanic lien better have their eyes wide open and ask a lot of questions. The OP gave the basic info and a couple days later provided pictures showing damage, prep for ferry flight, faded paint, the finished metal work.  At that point others posted additional info such as the airplane sitting for several years after the damage.  At that was posted well before the sale.  I came to much the same conclusion as Alan seeing pictures when the airplane was listed for sale by the owner on MS some time back (at least I think MS).

[Captnmack]

This plane sure stirred up a lot! I was interested, briefly until I had some “eyes” on it the morning of sale. I (we) all would love to see this flying again! Also the progress, etc. It would all be educational for many I suppose. I wish the buyer Goodluck and if he/she is around let us know. Many here are willing to help...

[Gubni]

I was at Morristown airport over the weekend and it doesn't look like this plane has moved in quite some time. N5783D

[Jerry Pressley]

Cant get a ferry permit till it is registered. FAA keeps  asking for same information over and over.  They say they now are in a position to register it but of course the paperwork went to the bottom of the pole again.  They are running 3 months minimum behind so sometime in November it will leave Morristown, TN.   And they have a new system for issuing a ferry permit.  Done online now and even more complicated.   3 airplanes on this one little airport sitting unregistered because faa is working out of home and communication between workers screwed up.   I am sorry for those folks who make a living buying and selling as it is almost impossible to move one legally now.  Regs require you to immediately send in your old registration and must be registered in your name in order to get a ferry permit if needed and minimum 3 months wait.  Of course some of us think that the plane doesn't know if registration is onboard.  Other option?????

[carusoam]

@Gubni   You got an answer to one of your statements above…

-a-

[Gubni]

12 hours ago, Jerry Pressley said:

Cant get a ferry permit till it is registered. FAA keeps  asking for same information over and over.  They say they now are in a position to register it but of course the paperwork went to the bottom of the pole again.  They are running 3 months minimum behind so sometime in November it will leave Morristown, TN.   And they have a new system for issuing a ferry permit.  Done online now and even more complicated.   3 airplanes on this one little airport sitting unregistered because faa is working out of home and communication between workers screwed up.   I am sorry for those folks who make a living buying and selling as it is almost impossible to move one legally now.  Regs require you to immediately send in your old registration and must be registered in your name in order to get a ferry permit if needed and minimum 3 months wait.  Of course some of us think that the plane doesn't know if registration is onboard.  Other option?????

The other option is to have the plane disassembled and put on a trailer behind a truck to a haul it.

[Gubni]

Just now, Gubni said:

The other option is to have the plane disassembled and put on a trailer behind a truck to a haul it.

Also once you get notification that you new document has been received you can call and ask for it to be expedited. I recommend to wait a week after it's been received.

[Jerry Pressley]

You ae a good idea but I fond out  that wont work .  I have one scheduled to go to the Dominican Republic to be painted.    I did an international operations registration on it.   Did the red ink and all required. They informed me that if the registration had expired it cannot be done that way. In the case of n5783D it had expired.  So for those that do not take serious the re-register required periodically the you are grounded until the 3 months or so that it takes now for registration.    Ad hauling a 21 is not as simple as a earlier one.  Longer so engine removal in some cases.  lots of avionics stuff to be routed through that 1 inch hole n front of the bay access cover.

[MB65E]

The entire registration process is a shame. For the 5 bucks they make on it they spend thousands tracking down lost registrations. Just leave it alone. 
I have had only one clean renewal on my Mooney. Just recently at work went through this for an airplane. Such a pain.

-Matt