Mooney and My mission - guidance

[atrosa]

I started my flight training a few weeks ago and logged a few hours.  My schedule was to fly fly 3 hours per week then COVID happened,  Side note I made the best of plans thinking life was not going to get in the way and interrupt my training.... alas here I am grounded, not by time or money or family..... COVID.  This however will redouble my efforts once this passes.

My plan is to own my own plane and I'm thinking a M20C fits my mission.

I have 2 questions:

1) Is training in a M20C that is mine a good idea?

2) My airport I train at has a 2,205 foot runway.  I know the Mooney doesn't like to slow down so will the 2,205 be a problem? 

I could always take off and do my pattern work at one of many nearby airports that has much longer runways. Finally, it will never escape me that I can always go around, no pride here.  If I'm high or fast I will go around.

Your wisdom and experience is appreciated.

   

  

[Hank]

Keep training when possible. Buy a Mooney when you find a good one. I bought my C five weeks after my PPL checkride, based at a 3000' obstructed field.

As a student, I learned to land nearby, and it was a while before I landed at my.base. once you learn how, it's not a problem. Ditto with my Mooney, I landed a few times elsewhere before trying it at home. 

Where are you based?

My advice:  stay in the trainer until your landings are smooth, and field length is never a problem. There is a Mooney Service Center on a 2200' field in Maryland, I think; it's not bad, you just need to fly right and be on speed. More reason to keep training while you shop for a plane.

Happy training! Happy shopping!

[Rwsavory]

It would better for you to finish your training and then buy an airplane.  2205 feet is very short for a new pilot in a Mooney.  I have many hours in my C, and I would avoid landing on such a short field unless absolutely necessary. Good luck. 

[gsxrpilot]

I learned to fly out of a 2600x35 foot strip. But did all the learning in a Cherokee. Since then I've been in there many times in my Mooney. In fact my first ever Mooney landing in my M20C was at that same short runway. So you won't have any problem with it in a Mooney... once you learn how to land well. 

I echo what others are saying and recommend sticking with a rental airplane until after you solo and get very comfortable with landings. Somewhere around the 50% point in your training, a transition to your own Mooney would be fine.

But here's the other thing to think about. If money is not a limiting factor, and you're not trying to buy a Mooney because you think it will be cheaper than renting... But rather you are sure that once you have your PPL and are ready to spread your wings, you're gonna want to do that in a Mooney. If that is the case, it makes sense to start looking now. The best M20C's are hard to find. 

Mooneys are made to travel and you'll quickly find the whole country is within reasonable range of an M20C. To do that type of traveling, you'll want to continue and get an Instrument rating. With an IR and the long trips you're likely to be making, you'll want your Mooney to have an autopilot, a WAAS GPS, a standard 6-pack panel, and even an HSI. These M20C's exist, but are rare. So when you find one, you might think seriously about buying it, even if you're not quite at that point in your training.

[atrosa]

I'm currently training at 4b9 simsbury, ct.  I will not be based there once I get my PPL.  I will either move to KMMK, KHFD or even 42B in Connecticut.  After my last landing I'm not sure I should be flying a kite let alone an airplane.  It was the 3rd time with me on the controls, CFI on them too.  I got it (C172) down fine, but on the roll I touched the right brake... yeah brake, I know I know and it started to dart to the right.  I didn't like the response so I stopped touching the brake. I was also making a radio call at the same time so over the CTAF airways you heard a student pilot say " Simsbury traffic N5169E departing runway 3...oh sh!t you driving this thing" looking for my CFI to take over. Thank goodness there is no LIVEatc for my friends to make a ringtone out of.Honestly, I have done some much studying and prep and mental flying up until then everything was coming pretty easy to me. 

GSXR - I wouldn't say money was no object but I budgeted for this.  I'm in no rush but I'm ready to move for the right one. The right one will have:

1) no corrosion

2) sealed tanks

3) midtime engine

4) no Prop AD

5) Manual Gear

(Please add to this list)

BTW one of my missions is to fly from CT to my place in New Hampshire.  250 miles away, 4 hours by car or 1.5 hours by Mooney.(plus drive to and from airport, preflight/runup, chit chatting to the airport bum.... ok it is about the same time but jeeze  your flying who cares)

[MooneyMitch]

Hello and how exciting!  Man, your enthusiasm brings back memories for me.  Getting my PPL was great......all the training several times per week until I reached my goal(s).  

My goals were to own an airplane and learn to fly it!!  Maybe that’s backwards.......should it be learn to fly and get my own airplane?....... well, not for me!

As others have suggested, I too suggest keep using the trainer to get past your basic maneuvers and get comfortable with landings.  

Yes, start searching for your Mooney!  Simultaneously, become well educated, via MS, about Mooney airplanes so you can make an intelligent purchase.......maintenance issues, flight characteristics, insurance, etc.

With your knew knowledge, and if you’re fortunate, you may find the correct Mooney for you.  If so, as did I, you can use your own airplane to complete your cross country training phase, eventually acquiring your PPL.

For myself, working towards my PPL in my own airplane was extra special!  

Welcome to all things Mooney, and beyond.....Mooneyspace!!!  

Wishing you complete success! 

P.S.  Please use a Mooney specific flight instructor!! 

 

 

[Skates97]

I would echo what others have said. Like Hank I bought my Mooney shortly after getting my PPL, Less than 60 hours total time. I did all my training in Cherokee's and am glad I didn't do it all in my own plane. (I felt sorry for the Cherokee's a few times...)

Also, a good C will take you anywhere you want to go. Our's (okay it's a D but thinks it's a C) took us from Southern California to the East Coast last summer and back. My mission was similar to yours, but we were looking at regular trips of 300-500nm and it has been perfect for that. Sure, extra money would have gotten my into a J, but that is a lot more money to get there in what amounts to just a little more time in the air, and as you said, you're flying, so who cares.

2,200' won't be a problem if you are on speed. My wife and I flew into Agua Caliente (L54) on Saturday. It's a 2,500' strip and it is recommended to land on 29 and take off on 11, even if you're landing with a little bit of a tail-wind because of a 460' hill that is 1/2 mile off the departure end of 29. We landed 29 with about a 3-4 knot tail wind (no weather but that is what the windsock looked like) and had no issues, barely even touching the brakes.

[Oldguy]

19 minutes ago, atrosa said:

I'm currently training at 4b9 simsbury, ct.  I will not be based there once I get my PPL.  I will either move to KMMK, KHFD or even 42B in Connecticut.  After my last landing I'm not sure I should be flying a kite let alone an airplane.  It was the 3rd time with me on the controls, CFI on them too.  I got it (C172) down fine, but on the roll I touched the right brake... yeah brake, I know I know and it started to dart to the right.  I didn't like the response so I stopped touching the brake. I was also making a radio call at the same time so over the CTAF airways you heard a student pilot say " Simsbury traffic N5169E departing runway 3...oh sh!t you driving this thing" looking for my CFI to take over. Thank goodness there is no LIVEatc for my friends to make a ringtone out of.Honestly, I have done some much studying and prep and mental flying up until then everything was coming pretty easy to me. 

GSXR - I wouldn't say money was no object but I budgeted for this.  I'm in no rush but I'm ready to move for the right one. The right one will have:

1) no corrosion

2) sealed tanks

3) midtime engine

4) no Prop AD

5) Manual Gear

(Please add to this list)

BTW one of my missions is to fly from CT to my place in New Hampshire.  250 miles away, 4 hours by car or 1.5 hours by Mooney.(plus drive to and from airport, preflight/runup, chit chatting to the airport bum.... ok it is about the same time but jeeze  your flying who cares)

I am sure @gsxrpilot (Paul) will chime in with the list he has put together over the years, but here are a few I would - and did - consider myself when hunting for my Mooney, in no special order:

• All ADs current and documented
• In annual
• Flown 50+ (preferably 75+) hrs/yr for the past couple of years
• Oil analysis a plus
• All instruments and avionics working as designed
• Current pitot/static
• ADS-B Out

After these it gets into preferences for me, so if I could find something with all of this, I would snap it up.

Final question. Is this a "forever plane" or a "for now" plane? We tend to overspend on our forever planes without concern for any return on the investment. For now planes are prudently purchased and upgraded and the traded for the next on which may be a forever plane.

Of course, there never really is any return on what you spend on a plane except for the sheer joy of flying it.

[atrosa]

11 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

 

Final question. Is this a "forever plane" or a "for now" plane? We tend to overspend on our forever planes without concern for any return on the investment. For now planes are prudently purchased and upgraded and the traded for the next on which may be a forever plane.

Of course, there never really is any return on what you spend on a plane except for the sheer joy of flying it.

oooh this is a tough question. I think of it as a forever plane.   I'm also looking into a Cherokee but that would definitely not be a forever plane. The Cherokee would be a "not have to worry about the flight schools plane schedule" type of plane.  The only way I could see the Mooney not as a forever plane is if my lovely wife decides that she would like to fly and the only thing she will fly in will be cirrus.  Then I will buy a Cirrus.  But please don't think I have Cirrus Money just sitting around.  But if this becomes a family adventure I will dedicate more money to it and reduce expenses somewhere else.  We have an 8 year old son who wants to fly too, so I look at this as getting a future teenage a skill that he can make into a career and save $250K on traditional college.

  

[Oldguy]

7 minutes ago, atrosa said:

I think of it as a forever plane. 

Here is a good example of what a "forever" C can look like.

 

[atrosa]

Just now, Andy95W said:

What exactly is your mission?

1)Fly to and from work on nice days, not to save time but to save sanity.  CT traffic is horrible. I live in Middlefiled CT and Drive to Windsor CT 4 days a week ( Before COVID 19) now I'm 100% at home until June???  

2) From KMMK to KHIE (Central CT to NH) a couple times a month. 

3) Occasional Trips from Central CT to Black island and Martha's Vineyard. 

4) and Certainly the most important to fulfill a life long dream of becoming a pilot.

BTW I'm 50 years old and in great health. 

[Andy95W]

EDIT- you were quick.  I had already deleted my post and  written the following:

What exactly is your mission?  The only things you've really mentioned thus far are the following:

        -learn to fly

        -son and wife may learn to fly

        -2200' runway

        -250 mile trip

Truthfully, you've just described a Cessna 182 with wheelpants.  The 182 is much better to train in, can be used by you and your son for Private, Instrument, and Commercial licenses/ratings, and would be ideal for a new-ish pilot at a 2200' strip.  It is also "friendly" enough that your wife would be more likely to want to fly in it (and learn to fly it).

The only negative to the C-182 is a grand total of 12 minutes.  A typical M20C on a 250 NM trip is 1:43.  The C-182 is 1:55.  Plus insurance is a LOT cheaper, annual inspections are cheaper, and they're more comfortable for you and your family to own and fly.

[atrosa]

2 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

Here is a good example of what a "forever" C can look like.

 

That is very nice looking, but I was hoping to spend less.  I'm fine with Great mechanicals, ok Aviaonics and mediocre paint.  804 useful load... Yikes most M20c's I thought were in the 900"s?

I'm in the financial industry and I think the economy will not dodge the recent events of COVID.  It takes a few months for capitulation to settle in, so I don'think the current crop of planes on barnstormers/Trade a Plane or Controller have really been priced for the current state of affairs. (Just my opinion) I'm thinking the summer will be a buyers market. 

 

[Davidv]

Thinking back to my training 2,200 can feel short in a 172 in many wind conditions... The guys who fly their Mooneys into that size strip usually have accrued a lot of experience and know their airplane well.  When all gets back to normal, get your PPL in a rental plane and then assess from there.  You want those bad learning landings to happen on a gear which has a very high margin of error (172), way too expensive in your own Mooney.

[dzeleski]

I would complete your PPL before getting a mooney. I didnt have too many terrible landings during training, but im glad the ones I did have were not in the plane I owned. There is also a lot to learn from a systems and maint perspective that you dont get during your PPL. Doing all of that at once would probably be pretty overwhelming.

I did 78 hours in 172s before I bought my moooney, getting into my plane with zero previous mooney or complex time felt very strange but its still a plane and it flys like one. Thankfully I had instructors that forced me to fly a 172 to the book every time, as well as planning descending well in advanced. I used x plane and a mooney add on to practice all the flows and procedures before flying it. Moving to a mooney for real I continued to fly by the book and plan far in advance this made it much easier to fly, the numbers were different but it was basically the same process.

At 78 hours I flew down to TX one way commercial, did my 10 hours of insurance check out and flew the plane home to NY. I have 50 hours in my J and regularly fly into <2500ft airports with ease. Fly by the book and it will land by the book.

[atrosa]

1 minute ago, Andy95W said:

EDIT- you were quick.  I had already deleted my post and  written the following:

What exactly is your mission?  The only things you've really mentioned thus far are the following:

        -learn to fly

        -son and wife may learn to fly

        -2200' runway

        -250 mile trip

Truthfully, you've just described a Cessna 182 with wheelpants.  The 182 is much better to train in, can be used by you and your son for Private, Instrument, and Commercial licenses/ratings, and would be ideal for a new-ish pilot at a 2200' strip.  It is also "friendly" enough that your wife would be more likely to want to fly in it (and learn to fly it).

The only negative to the C-182 is a grand total of 12 minutes.  A typical M20C on a 250 NM trip is 1:43.  The C-182 is 1:55.  Plus insurance is a LOT cheaper, annual inspections are cheaper, and they're more comfortable for you and your family to own and fly.

Only problem is that Cessna's are ugly.  

Sorry Cessna fans, they are great planes.  N5212K and N5169E are both Cessna's and the only planes in my log book. I appreciate all the beating the take and a very docile, but If I'm going to spend a ton of cash on a plane it needs to not be a frumpy high wing. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I would rent one and even join a club with one, but I wouldn't buy one.

[Andy95W]

16 minutes ago, atrosa said:

1)Fly to and from work on nice days, not to save time but to save sanity.  CT traffic is horrible. I live in Middlefiled CT and Drive to Windsor CT 4 days a week ( Before COVID 19) now I'm 100% at home until June???  

2) From KMMK to KHIE (Central CT to NH) a couple times a month. 

3) Occasional Trips from Central CT to Black island and Martha's Vineyard. 

4) and Certainly the most important to fulfill a life long dream of becoming a pilot.

BTW I'm 50 years old and in great health. 

I hate to say it again, because 2 of the 3 airplanes I've owned were M20Cs and I love my current M20C and how it flies.  But you should seriously consider either a C-182 or C-177 Cardinal.

In about 10 years when I retire from my airline job, that is exactly what I'll be flying to perform pretty much the same mission you're describing.  Whatever airplane gets my ass up off the ground is beautiful to me.

[Fry]

My (German) home base is a strip 1970ft long at 997ft MSL. I have a M20J there, another guy has a M20C. No issues.

The secret is to be on speed or go around. I fly my approach at 75-80 KIAS and further slow down about 1/2 mile out. The goal is to end up with 1.2 Vs0 when beginning the roundout - and I mean the actual Vs0, corrected for weight. I carry a table for that purpose (I use the W&B, have drawn some typical loading configurations with a line from full to empty fuel, and added a 1.2Vs0 scale next to the weight axis). Since I'm never at MTOW when landing, that 1.2 Vs0 is usually in the range of 64-68kt for my J.  If that speed is not established at the beginning of the roundout, I go around.

Flare to touchdown is 3 seconds or so. Aerodynamic braking, flaps up, brakes for the last 500ft of the runway. Works every time, and my landings are much better than they ever were in all the Cessnas I flew (150 through 210).

Here in Germany, there is a flight school based at an even shorter strip. They use M20Js for advanced training.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Fry
typo

[atrosa]

Just now, Andy95W said:

I hate to say it again, because 2 of the 3 airplanes I've owned were M20Cs and I love my current M20C and how it flies.  But you should seriously consider either a C-182 or C-177 Cardinal.

In about 10 years when I retire from my airline job, that is exactly what I'll be flying to perform pretty much the same mission you're describing.

It feels like an arranged marriage.  The elders actually know what is best but I still want to marry the Stripper.

[Fry]

Just now, atrosa said:

It feels like an arranged marriage.  The elders actually know what is best but I still want to marry the Stripper.

Marry the stripper!  There is a saying, "it is far better to regret what you've done than to regret what you haven't"!

[Davidv]

4 minutes ago, atrosa said:

It feels like an arranged marriage.  The elders actually know what is best but I still want to marry the Stripper.

Ha yes, I bought my first Mooney with 120 hours and I learned to fly it from an experienced person with 20k small piston flight hours. I felt very comfortable flying mine shortly thereafter.  I’m glad that I got my license in a 172 first to learn the basics though.  I would still go for the Mooney when you're done training!

Edited March 31, 2020 by Davidv

[gsxrpilot]

32 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

In about 10 years when I retire from my airline job, that is exactly what I'll be flying to perform pretty much the same mission you're describing.  Whatever airplane gets my ass up off the ground is beautiful to me.

Everything you need to know about why to ignore this advice, in in that statement. I don't know what it is with so many pro pilots. But they certainly look at airplanes differently than those of us who spent 20 to 40 years working, building, toiling and being responsible... all so we can finally get to a place were we can afford to indulge a lifetime dream of flying and owning an airplane. Is the Cessna 182 (1980 Ford F150) or the Cessna Cardinal (1990 Chrysler Minivan) a more practical form of A to B transportation? Maybe? But you didn't put all the time an effort in so you can buy a Minivan. You want the Porsche and there's no reason you shouldn't have the Porsche. And to hell with what the family wants. This isn't their dream, it's your dream. They'll be happy to ride along or they won't. It's doesn't change the fact that you'll be so proud to pull that Mooney out of the hangar every single time.

@Andy95W actually does have lots of good advice and if you read back through his posts, you'll find lots of quality information. But I'm glad I ignored similar advice when I was shopping for my first airplane. 

[gsxrpilot]

This is the one I'd be looking at right now. https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20C&listing_id=2380002&s-type=aircraft&fbclid=IwAR3OaVAkyYzpWsU8Jc-asxXBSz-WT6l63LVSebiOfVYhlNbgTk5paGN5woM

As @Oldguy said, I've got a list. I've actually got a few lists. When it comes to finding a Mooney, it helps to make a few lists. My first list are deal breakers. There are things like corrosion and being far out of annual and not flying, that are deal breakers for me.

A much longer list are the negotiable items. I made a "wish" list of all the things I'd like to have in my Mooney. And then I sorted the list by a combination of what's important to me and how expensive it would be to "get it", "upgrade", "fix", etc.

For example an autopilot is important to me, not the most important thing, but important none the less. But it's pretty high on the list just because of the very high cost to add one after buying the plane. Other things like an engine monitor are even more important to me than an autopilot, but are lower on the list as the cost to add one later is reasonable. There are other things like engine time that is very negotiable and depending on the economics, high time might be better, or low time might be better, or mid-time. 

I made the list and then kept re-ordering the list as I learned more about Mooneys, ownership, etc. Eventually I bought the M20C that got as far down the list as possible, and made economic sense.

Send me a PM if you'd like the list and other notes I made when shopping for an M20C.

[Hank]

MS is a great resource for new pilots, and for anyone who is plane shopping. I had no one to talk to but other pilots and the A&P at the field. That I stumbled into a refreshed Mooney in good shape at my tiny local field was pure luck! But I sure am glad that I didn't buy a Slowhawk . . . . Even my wife enjoys flying with me. Just manage introductions for nice days with good weather, smooth flying and go somewhere that your wife will enjoy. My wife really enjoys seeing her family in a couple hours' flight time vs. an 8-hour drive. Often on trips, VFR or IFR, she will sleep anyway, unless we're going somewhere new [like our little jaunt to Yellowstone--she took a couple thousand pictures out the window].

Don't get hung up on manual vs. electric gear, either. It's pretty close to a 50-50 split, no need to rule out half the planes from your search. I like my electric gear! And no matter what Paul says above, all I can say is "What's an HSI?" Got my license and my Mooney in 2007, I've never flown a plane with one. Oh, I take that back, I did make two or three A-36 flights, but I just ignored it. Love the PC system and the Brittain AccuTrak!

[Oldguy]

1 hour ago, atrosa said:

That is very nice looking, but I was hoping to spend less.  I'm fine with Great mechanicals, ok Aviaonics and mediocre paint.  804 useful load... Yikes most M20c's I thought were in the 900"s?

I'm in the financial industry and I think the economy will not dodge the recent events of COVID.  It takes a few months for capitulation to settle in, so I don'think the current crop of planes on barnstormers/Trade a Plane or Controller have really been priced for the current state of affairs. (Just my opinion) I'm thinking the summer will be a buyers market. 

 

No, not necessarily saying this is one to buy, but as an example of what you can do to make it your forever plane. There are a couple like this one I would call at the top end of the C spectrum, and others lower on the scale. @Hank has one at the upper end as well. You can do a lot with a C.