Hello...Enough Lurking!

[rangermb]

Hi everyone...I'm new to posting here but have been hanging around for quite a while. You all have a wealth of information and knowledge and I am very impressed with the quality of the posts (well, most of them anyway ).

I am a private instrument pilot with about 12 years and 700 hours. I just completed complex transition training in an Arrow. I've been lusting after a Mooney for years. With me, the wife and a little doggy, the J would seem to meet our needs (wants?). I have an affinity for the design and the general idea of getting the most knots per horse. I have owned a brand P for my entire flying career. It's time to stop wishing and start acting. As soon as I sell by bird, I going buying!

My question here is...would it be out of place to ask the group for information related to particular planes that I might find interesting. It seems that sometimes there are secrets that don't seem to end up in sales ads or NTSB reports. I don't want to step on any toes or break and unwritten rules, so I though I would ask.

Thank you all for your past influence on my decision. I look forward to being out in the open with you all.

Happy Motoring

Mike

[John Pleisse]

Mike...goood luck with it. I have a J and it suits most missions. No kids? Even better.

I have a friend with a Turbo Arrow I have flown quite a bit. I really don't like it. I also fly and A36 for a local flying svc. The Mooney 201 is the best all-around, bang for the buck plane.

[rainman]

I was in your position a couple of months ago, but with a lot less experience as a pilot. I sold my Warrior and looked at a website called Mooneyland. It's a business and one of the things he had was a couple of e-books on buying aircraft, especially Mooneys.  After reading both books I evaluated my mission requirements.  I'd be flying into ABQ often and all year around.  I found that most J model owners found that they could do this type of mountain flying when things went well.  My research and a good comparison article from MAPA on the 201-vs-231 performance came down to this. At 10,000 ft and below the performance is the same and the ease of operation of the 201 gives it the nod.  Above 10,000 feet the 231 performance was clearly superior.  So what kind of flying was I going to do....above 12,000 feet coming and going.  At this time the 201 and 231 prices are about the same.  Select the plane that fits your needs....it will be a Mooney, just which one?? I used a knowledgable broker to locate my plane and get the pre-inspection done.  There was too much for a newby like me to look for and the seller paid the broker fee.

[jetdriven]

Below 10,000 feet the 231 performance is the same but it costs 30% more to fly a mile. Or around the same as a Bonanza.

[ElkoRandy20J]

Mike,

I got my J, two years ago and at the time had just a bit more time logged.  It has been great having the J.  I live in the west, EKO, and most of the flying I do is + 8000 ft with airport at 5000 ft.  Have flown over Cascades, once, and Continental divide 8 times or so (WYO - wind river range mostly) with no issues.  I think skywagons.com has a pretty nice looking (exterior paint) 231 now.  One of their dealers has an older Mooney also ( a C I believe).  Still learning but having a good time with the 201.  One thing to remember though, it is not for slow and low flight.  Just the opposite.

Randy

Elko, NV

[David Mazer]

My comparison is a Rocket vs an F (as opposed to the J you are thinking about).  The aquisition and maintenance cost of the Rocket is higher than the F, for sure, but the operating cost/mile is very close since the Rocket is so much faster.  If you are flying into high or hot environments, I would look into the K with or without the Rocket conversion.  You might be pleasantly surprised at what you can get and the piece of mind it might give.  And, if you do consider a K, the 252 is considered substantialy better than the 231 by many reports.  I can't really say, but those are the reports I've read.

[jetdriven]

Given th cost of the 252 vs the 231 its more plane for more money.   I dont know much about Rockets but the fuel burn and the overhaul costs there is no way it can beat a J or F on a cost per mile basis unless you ignore overhaul costs on the engine and prop.  However, it is super fast.  You get what you pay for.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Quote: jetdriven

Below 10,000 feet the 231 performance is the same but it costs 30% more to fly a mile. Or around the same as a Bonanza.

[David Mazer]

Jetdriven, don't know if you are correct about the comparison between the Rocket and a J but, I have included a reserve and the difference is only a few pennies per mile between the Rocket and the F now that gas prices have risen so much.  A couple years ago the comparison was a wash.

[jax88]

Get the best available Mooney in your budget.  If that happens to be a J, so be it, an F is fine, a K even better, just get the aircraft that already has as many of the items that are important to you.  Those items may be certain avionics, a custom interior, recent overhaul or sealed tanks, whatever it is that you want in an aircraft.

Unless you have a specific need, such as having a majority of your missions take you into high density altitude airports, most any Mooney will meet your requirements.  We all have different priorities when it comes to equipment, speed, operating costs, efficiency, etc.  With the amount of flying you already have logged, you should have a fair and accurate estimate of your typical mission.  Point being, unless 40% or more of your flying is high density altitude, even the non-turbo Mooneys will do the job.

[jetdriven]

I think a Rocket is a lot more expensive, and significantrly faster as well.   Your garden veriety 201 such as ours is a 24$ an hour reserve for engine, prop, gyros, vacuum pump, tires, plugs, etc.  all in.  Fuel burn for us is averaging 9 GPH over 100 hours but lets call it 10.  Ours goes 145-150 knots on 9 GPH but it will do 10 GPH and 155.  An F is really about the same just subtract 5-10 knots. Lets just call the insurance the same as well though our hull value is quite a bit less than a Rocket.  Low time partners bring it back up

So average early J= 155 KTAS  10 GPH  24$/hr + 10 GPH (x 5.25/gal) =

Direct operating cost is $ 76.50 per hour or 49c per nautical mile.

Rocket = 190 KTAS 17 GPH 42$/hr + 17.2 GPH (x 5.25/gal) =

Direct operating cost of $132.30 / hr or 69c per nautical mile. 

That is right at 40% higher direcrt operarting costs per mile. I dont have useful load figures but ours with bladders is still 974 LB.  600 NM of fuel and 640 LB in the cabin.  I dont think anyone can argue with those numbers. Of course you have an airplane that can fly damn near 200 knots and go to 20K feet, even have TKS as an option, and I respect that. Just remember it costs significantly more to have that capability. 

Yes I agree a 231 is less expensive than a Rocket and slower as well, but when the clock stops on the engine its 40K instead of 20-25K for a J, so that is something that is significant as well.  We just went through the whole cost analysis and figured it up at 30% more per mile.  I'd love one, it just wasnt justufiable.

Quote: Mazerbase

My variable costs for my Rocket are about $45/hr (reserve for OH, reserve for prop, oil, etc) + fuel.  Fuel is running $5.00/gal and my typical cruise is 17.2 gph.  That comes to $131/hr.  Adding a bit for fudge, say $140/hr total variable expense.  Now the tricky part, ground speed, or TAS and assuming zero wind, at what altitude?  I usually cruise at 185 - 190 kts below 10,000 and about 200 - 205 in the mid-teens.  On the conservative side that would be 140/187.5 = $0.75/nm or $0.65/sm.  A 231 will be less for each variable (reserve, fuel, and speed) but I don't know the proportionality.  Fixed cost is difficult to add to the equation as the number of hours/year so affects the cost per hour or mile that I just don't include it in the calculation and I just know it is a lot.

Quote: Mazerbase

Jetdriven, don't know if you are correct about the comparison between the Rocket and a J but, I have included a reserve and the difference is only a few pennies per mile between the Rocket and the F now that gas prices have risen so much.  A couple years ago the comparison was a wash.

[jetdriven]

Apples to apples comaprison re: autopilot.  Your 231 came with it and you got a discount on it because it was already installed.  But saying the 231 is cheaper because it didnt cost 20K  install it is like saying a 201 is cheaper because you didnt have to convert it into a Rocket.  You would have just bought a Rocket instead.  Later 201's were offered with KAP 150's and even the early ones had KFC-200s as well.

I wil agree than 231's are generally better equipped than the same year 201 but on engine overhaul reserve alone coupled with the tendency of the TSIO-360 to require a few cylinders sometimes to make TBO increases costs significantly.  I would agree the 231 is overall more performance especially climb where a 201 cannot compare.  I know your 201 wouldnt run LOP but most will if given some attention to fuel injectors, ignition and the like and the average is 9-10 GPH. I haven't flown a 231 but from most reports here its a ~12 GPH plane down low and maybe less up high. Above 10K hands down, the 231 is it.

My original statement was a 231 is more airplane for more money and I think that bears out.Just make sure you will use it.   Do you agree?

Quote: 201-FLYER

 

Having owned both a 201 and now a 231 I would argue this point on several fronts. Here is one example….I could not operate my 4 cylinder lean of peak in the 201 and in my 231 I can operate the six cylinder engine with stock injectors lean of peak which to me means 9 gph at pretty much any altitude I want.  I was burning on average 2 gph MORE in the 201 and going a bit slower below 10K at comparable power settings.  Also with regards to performance my 231 could out climb the 201 hands down even below 10K.  The higher you go the bigger the difference of course.  My K has been MUCH cheaper to own in my opinion and here is one example of why….I wanted a good autopilot and if I kept my J I would have to install a 20K STEC 55X to do the job I wanted.  I pretty much got that capability for FREE with the KING a/p already installed in my and most other 231’s.  You really can’t find a stock a/p in the older 201’s with that kind of capability.

[David Mazer]

The reserve for the F was $36/hr and I plan 135 kts at 10 gph from experience.  That makes the equation ((10*5.25)+36)/135, or $0.65/nm.  The reserve was calculated by the F's owner, not me, and even if I give it 140 kts, that still comes out to $0.63/nm.  I have never managed 140 kts.  Say 10% more at these gas prices.  If a J is that much better, great.  I've always felt a J was a great plane and if I wasn't planning on such long flights, the F or J would be a great plane for me.  No question the acquisition is more but not as much more as it used to be.  I, unfortunately, bought it when it was a lot more.  If you are going farther, hotter, or higher, the turbo is nice to have.

If gas prices ever get back to $2.77/gal (right), the cost difference/nm is zero.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: 201-FLYER

[aviatoreb]

Quote: Mazerbase

 If you are going farther, hotter, or higher, the turbo is nice to have.

If gas prices ever get back to $2.77/gal (right), the cost difference/nm is zero.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Quote: jetdriven

 

Having owned both a 201 and now a 231 I would argue this point on several fronts. Here is one example….I could not operate my 4 cylinder lean of peak in the 201 and in my 231 I can operate the six cylinder engine with stock injectors lean of peak which to me means 9 gph at pretty much any altitude I want.  I was burning on average 2 gph MORE in the 201 and going a bit slower below 10K at comparable power settings.  Also with regards to performance my 231 could out climb the 201 hands down even below 10K.  The higher you go the bigger the difference of course.  My K has been MUCH cheaper to own in my opinion and here is one example of why….I wanted a good autopilot and if I kept my J I would have to install a 20K STEC 55X to do the job I wanted.  I pretty much got that capability for FREE with the KING a/p already installed in my and most other 231’s.  You really can’t find a stock a/p in the older 201’s with that kind of capability.

[RJBrown]

 Don't buy less than you need (want) or you will be disappointed. As a former Rocket owner and after five years without a plane I chose a J. I chose it for all the right reasons. It was to be all I needed as I head into retirement. Problem is I MISS the Rocket too much to enjoy all the good points in the J. I hope this is ONLY a $10,000.00 mistake. It is listed here and will be with a broker soon.

As for cost the Rocket and the 231/252 engine cost about the same at O/H, $30,00 per hour for the engines is appropriate. The Rocket is more likely to reach 1800 hours than the stock Ks. And it will go much further in that time. 64,000 miles further. That is like 375 hours further. A 231 gets 170 knots on 14 gal a rocket gets 200 knots on 20 gal. At $5.00 per gallon that is $130 an hour for the Rocket and $100 for the K. $.65 per mile for the Rocket vs $0.59 per mile for the Ks. The J will go 145 knots on 9 gal in my experience. The engine will make 2000 hours and the reserve per hour would be half the turbos at $15.00. $60 per hour total to go 145 knots or about $0.41 per mile.  Maintenance on the Rocket will be slightly less than the 231 while the J will be the least of all. Though these differences are not as big as some believe. Most systems are Identical on the 3 versions and avionics are your choice and not related to airframe.

Direct operating costs per mile .41 (J) .59 (K) and .65 (Rocket)

Annuals / maintenance similar for all three. (80% J, 100% Rocket, 110% K) budget $5000 per year for each and you will be safe. Storage is based on your field costs and will be the same for all. $2,700.00 for a shelter at APA.

Insurance is based on the declared value of the airframe and your experience, $2,300.00 should cover most.

As you can see $10,000 to $12,000 per year plus gas and reserve to own a Mooney. This ignores acquisition costs and assumes the plane is paid for. The lost income from a $100,000 plus asset could also be added vs financing costs.  If my broker could get me 10% on the $125,000 and I fly 100 hours my final cost to fly is about $30,000 to $35,000 per year.

The cost difference per year to go from J to a Rocket is only $6500 of that total. The real final cost is about 20% more for the turbos figured this way.

[kris_adams]

Hey Randy, sounds like you really miss the Rocket!  I guess it's better to not know what type of performance is out there--gotta be happy with my J for now.

Thanks for taking the time to write up these numbers.  They certainly seem accurate to me.

Kris

N4679H