TEX Posted October 13, 2019 Report Posted October 13, 2019 Anyone have any current cost data on TIO-540-AF1B Reman, Rebuild, or Factory New? Quote
donkaye Posted October 13, 2019 Report Posted October 13, 2019 As of September 2018 the Reman cost $65,647 less $1,700 Customer loyalty discount plus $,1,248 Shipping. That assumes you get the Core credit of $29,500 after you return the core. The cost probably increased somewhat after the 1st of the year. 1 Quote
Davidv Posted October 13, 2019 Report Posted October 13, 2019 I’m not going to hate on any discounts, but I think the “customer loyalty” is pretty funny. “even though I was considering putting in a TSIO-550 in my bravo, I decided to stick with you guys and go with the 540” 1 Quote
flight2000 Posted October 13, 2019 Report Posted October 13, 2019 I'd start here and then go from there. Air Power, Inc. is a distributor for the Lycoming factory. https://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/pc/engines.asp?searchParm=TIO-540-AF1B&catID=33 Cheers, Brian 1 Quote
Bravoman Posted October 13, 2019 Report Posted October 13, 2019 I remember back in 2016 when I bought my reman the factory new would set you back about 100k 1 Quote
alextstone Posted October 13, 2019 Report Posted October 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Bravoman said: I remember back in 2016 when I bought my reman the factory new would set you back about 100k These engines are not for the faint at heart, are they? I save 1 AMU per month toward my future overhaul. 2 Quote
TEX Posted October 13, 2019 Author Report Posted October 13, 2019 11 hours ago, donkaye said: As of September 2018 the Reman cost $65,647 less $1,700 Customer loyalty discount plus $,1,248 Shipping. That assumes you get the Core credit of $29,500 after you return the core. The cost probably increased somewhat after the 1st of the year. Thanks Don do I assume this is includes all labor etc...??? Quote
flight2000 Posted October 13, 2019 Report Posted October 13, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, TEX said: Thanks Don do I assume this is includes all labor etc...??? Not Don, but that's just for the engine overhaul/rebuild. My total for the R&R portion by the maintenance shop that pulled and reinstalled the engine (plus new engine mounts, misc hardware, etc) was close to $10K. I was sitting at $46K all in for the total cost of overhauling the IO520 in my previous Bonanza. Brian Edited October 13, 2019 by flight2000 Quote
donkaye Posted October 13, 2019 Report Posted October 13, 2019 32 minutes ago, TEX said: Thanks Don do I assume this is includes all labor etc...??? No, labor to R&R is additional. I figure that the total cost to change engines with a reman would be about $81,000. This includes overhauling both alternators and prop governor (2,000), replacing all hoses (2,000), inspecting the engine mount frame (500), New engine mount kit (1,200) and labor to remove and reinstall the engine (10,000). Quote
LANCECASPER Posted October 13, 2019 Report Posted October 13, 2019 29 minutes ago, donkaye said: No, labor to R&R is additional. I figure that the total cost to change engines with a reman would be about $81,000. This includes overhauling both alternators and prop governor (2,000), replacing all hoses (2,000), inspecting the engine mount frame (500), New engine mount kit (1,200) and labor to remove and reinstall the engine (10,000). PHT in Tulsa quoted $3538.23 for all 33 hoses back in 2016, so I wouldn't surprised at $4000 now. Quote
TEX Posted October 13, 2019 Author Report Posted October 13, 2019 15 hours ago, donkaye said: As of September 2018 the Reman cost $65,647 less $1,700 Customer loyalty discount plus $,1,248 Shipping. That assumes you get the Core credit of $29,500 after you return the core. The cost probably increased somewhat after the 1st of the year. Another question that I can't seem to get a solid answer on the "web" : Install cost of either GTN 750 or GTN 650. ?? Quote
David Medders Posted October 13, 2019 Report Posted October 13, 2019 15 hours ago, TEX said: Anyone have any current cost data on TIO-540-AF1B Reman, Rebuild, or Factory New? What is motivating your interest in engine replacement? We just overhauled our last two original cylinders on a TIO-540-AF1B at 1,950 hours. We are planning to run it until there is a reason for overhaul or replacement. Just an aside, I asked our mechanic what a new cylinder would cost versus an overhaul. His answer: No idea, I have never replaced a Lycoming cylinder...and he has been in the business a long time. David Quote
TEX Posted October 13, 2019 Author Report Posted October 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, David Medders said: What is motivating your interest in engine replacement? We just overhauled our last two original cylinders on a TIO-540-AF1B at 1,950 hours. We are planning to run it until there is a reason for overhaul or replacement. Just an aside, I asked our mechanic what a new cylinder would cost versus an overhaul. His answer: No idea, I have never replaced a Lycoming cylinder...and he has been in the business a long time. David I definitely agree with your thinking on "why would you". My motivation at this point is more value evaluation for my purchase of a Bravo --do I purchase an aircraft that is close to TBO or do I purchase purchase a bravo with lower time Engine. On my cursory review, it seems like the better buys are Aircraft with lower time engines. Quote
David Medders Posted October 13, 2019 Report Posted October 13, 2019 18 minutes ago, TEX said: I definitely agree with your thinking on "why would you". My motivation at this point is more value evaluation for my purchase of a Bravo --do I purchase an aircraft that is close to TBO or do I purchase purchase a bravo with lower time Engine. On my cursory review, it seems like the better buys are Aircraft with lower time engines. Now I get it. Your observation surprises me, as I thought the price reduction for a high-time engine would make high-time an interesting risk to take. The analysis is easy given the input from this thread. An engine is $75k installed ASSUMING you have a good core. Another possible route is overhauling the existing engine. I suggest Mike Busch's books regarding engine management. I would be interested to know where you land. David Quote
Davidv Posted October 13, 2019 Report Posted October 13, 2019 Based on your questions above, it seems that you already know that avionics is a big consideration in this purchase. In my view, the best combination is an aircraft that has updated avionics with a run out engine (if you aren't considering something mid-time). Prices can vary, but a 750 installed will be about $17-19K, 650 is around $14K, Aspen $14K, GTX-345 around $7K, and a 500TXI is $30K++ depending on the options. New autopilots will run at least $20K. It's important to note that some of the EFIS options won't play nice with legacy autopilots without either spending significant $$$ or changing out the autopilot altogether. My thinking is that engines can have variability based on how they were flown (was the owner conservative on temps or did they plan on swapping cylinders?), maintained, and any other "imperfections" from the last overhaul. Therefore, the risk that you may need to dump a lot of money into the engine is higher than avionics. Yes, avionics can fail, but the cost to update the software or overhaul them is generally capped at an amount that won't completely break your bank. Also, the software is constantly being updated by Garmin/Avidyne so even though your 750 may have been installed 6 years ago it will function exactly the same as a unit sold today with the right software. I'm sure i'll be proven wrong, but with WAAS/ADS-B/Touchscreen, it's hard for me to think of a potential new model that would make your 750 look like a 430 in the immediate future. I'm not saying this combination is always easy to find, but there can be examples out there... 1 Quote
carusoam Posted October 14, 2019 Report Posted October 14, 2019 Add to your homework... The definitions of... new factory reman factory OH whatever rebuilt means OH’d by some other engine rebuilder... These all seam to be valid means of getting the old engine replaced with a newish one... It is what’s important to you kind of thing... Experienced owners have less concern when buying a runout engine... they look forward to pricing appropriately, and getting the reman that they want... Often, on a high time engine, there are benefits of buying and running past TBO... Keep in mind, the Bravo’s engine has a significant exhaust system to include in the math... Turbo exhaust systems are operated hot, and under pressure, compared to NA engines.... so it is important to be aware of what comes with the OH and what is excluded... expect that exhaust pipes can get pretty thin over time if they haven’t been replaced... poking around in the exhaust system? Know about re-use of exhaust clamps... don’t take any off for a quick look-see... they are not re-usable, when re-used there is a terrible failure mode... PP thoughts only, I had the good fortune to OH an IO550, went with the factory reman option... +10amu for R&R... throw on some options like servicing the mount and other things... The four blade composite prop starts looking really good on your forever plane... for a few amu more... best regards, -a- Quote
TEX Posted October 14, 2019 Author Report Posted October 14, 2019 1 hour ago, carusoam said: Add to your homework... The definitions of... new factory reman factory OH whatever rebuilt means OH’d by some other engine rebuilder... These all seam to be valid means of getting the old engine replaced with a newish one... It is what’s important to you kind of thing... Experienced owners have less concern when buying a runout engine... they look forward to pricing appropriately, and getting the reman that they want... Often, on a high time engine, there are benefits of buying and running past TBO... Keep in mind, the Bravo’s engine has a significant exhaust system to include in the math... Turbo exhaust systems are operated hot, and under pressure, compared to NA engines.... so it is important to be aware of what comes with the OH and what is excluded... expect that exhaust pipes can get pretty thin over time if they haven’t been replaced... poking around in the exhaust system? Know about re-use of exhaust clamps... don’t take any off for a quick look-see... they are not re-usable, when re-used there is a terrible failure mode... PP thoughts only, I had the good fortune to OH an IO550, went with the factory reman option... +10amu for R&R... throw on some options like servicing the mount and other things... The four blade composite prop starts looking really good on your forever plane... for a few amu more... best regards, -a- Thank you I will definitely dig in on the homework assignment be sure I’m knowledgeable enough to make a good financial decision. I hope you can stay with me through this process and call you again? Quote
TEX Posted October 14, 2019 Author Report Posted October 14, 2019 5 hours ago, Davidv said: Based on your questions above, it seems that you already know that avionics is a big consideration in this purchase. In my view, the best combination is an aircraft that has updated avionics with a run out engine (if you aren't considering something mid-time). Prices can vary, but a 750 installed will be about $17-19K, 650 is around $14K, Aspen $14K, GTX-345 around $7K, and a 500TXI is $30K++ depending on the options. New autopilots will run at least $20K. It's important to note that some of the EFIS options won't play nice with legacy autopilots without either spending significant $$$ or changing out the autopilot altogether. My thinking is that engines can have variability based on how they were flown (was the owner conservative on temps or did they plan on swapping cylinders?), maintained, and any other "imperfections" from the last overhaul. Therefore, the risk that you may need to dump a lot of money into the engine is higher than avionics. Yes, avionics can fail, but the cost to update the software or overhaul them is generally capped at an amount that won't completely break your bank. Also, the software is constantly being updated by Garmin/Avidyne so even though your 750 may have been installed 6 years ago it will function exactly the same as a unit sold today with the right software. I'm sure i'll be proven wrong, but with WAAS/ADS-B/Touchscreen, it's hard for me to think of a potential new model that would make your 750 look like a 430 in the immediate future. I'm not saying this combination is always easy to find, but there can be examples out there... Thank you for your inputThank you for your input Quote
TEX Posted October 14, 2019 Author Report Posted October 14, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, David Medders said: Now I get it. Your observation surprises me, as I thought the price reduction for a high-time engine would make high-time an interesting risk to take. The analysis is easy given the input from this thread. An engine is $75k installed ASSUMING you have a good core. Another possible route is overhauling the existing engine. I suggest Mike Busch's books regarding engine management. I would be interested to know where you land. David Thank you David I will definitely keep my journey visible on mooney space and I appreciate your input and if needed I’d like to call on your Experience again?? Edited October 14, 2019 by TEX Quote
carusoam Posted October 14, 2019 Report Posted October 14, 2019 I’ve been here a while... probably not going away any too soon... The Bravo is one of Mooney’s best developed planes... It was the second Long Body... And the Bravo was the second version of the TLS... Its a great plane... Good news! You have strong financial experience... The OH cost, firewall forwards, keeps many people’s dreams in check... Proceed with due diligence... keep both eyes open and expect success in the end... Don’t skip any steps by making assumptions... too costly if the assumption goes awry... PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or CFI... Best regards, -a- Quote
donkaye Posted October 14, 2019 Report Posted October 14, 2019 I've been associated with Mooneys for a few years, like 27 years of ownership of my Bravo with another 2 years before that of decision making. I'm on my 3rd engine right now. I've been through a complete panel upgrade, starting in 2013 and adding new things up to the present. When it comes to engines, the price increases about 5% each year. Count on it. If you have time to spare in your life, cash in your pocket to spend, and want your dream airplane, then buy a Bravo with both a run out engine and original avionics. You might be able to find one for $95,000. A new reman installed, as mentioned above is close to $85,000. Your dream all Garmin panel with G500 TXi including EIS, GTS 800, GTX 345, GDL 69A, GMA 35c, G5, GTN 750, GTN 650, FS 510, and GFC 500 costs about $130,000 installed. So you would have 95,000 + 85,000 + 130,000 = $310,000 in the plane. Add $12,000 for tank reseal, $15,000 for exterior paint and 15,000 for new interior and you end up with $337,000 for an almost new airplane. This is less than half of the cost of a new Acclaim for a plane that is only about 25 knots slower. The downside is that the new engine will take over 2 months to make and other 1 month to R&R. And unless you have the Avionics shop on the same field as the MSC, add at least another 4 months for the avionics upgrade and another 2 for the tank reseal and paint and interior. That's 2 + 1 + 4 +2 = 9 months. Then add another 3 for delays. So the plane will be down for a year. The upside is that you will have an almost new airplane for less than half the cost of a new one. Then, of course, you could decide to buy a Bravo with a run out engine and a somewhat upgraded panel. The upgraded panel would probably consist of at least an Aspen, GTN 750, KX155, and GTX 345. The plane could probably be purchased for $135,000. Add the new engine for $85,000 and you are in it for $220,000, you're down for 3 months, you hope the tanks don't leak, and can live with the old paint and interior. You don't have the dream airplane, but you've bought the avionics at a discount, you don't have as long downtime, and you still have the speed of the Bravo. Also, remember airplanes are not inexpensive to own, so expect it to cost at least $30,000 per year to own for about 100 hours of flying per year. It's expensive, but at least not the annual cost of maintenance on a small turbine prop plane or small jet, and you're not that much slower. 6 Quote
Bravoman Posted October 14, 2019 Report Posted October 14, 2019 5 hours ago, donkaye said: I've been associated with Mooneys for a few years, like 27 years of ownership of my Bravo with another 2 years before that of decision making. I'm on my 3rd engine right now. I've been through a complete panel upgrade, starting in 2013 and adding new things up to the present. When it comes to engines, the price increases about 5% each year. Count on it. If you have time to spare in your life, cash in your pocket to spend, and want your dream airplane, then buy a Bravo with both a run out engine and original avionics. You might be able to find one for $95,000. A new reman installed, as mentioned above is close to $85,000. Your dream all Garmin panel with G500 TXi including EIS, GTS 800, GTX 345, GDL 69A, GMA 35c, G5, GTN 750, GTN 650, FS 510, and GFC 500 costs about $130,000 installed. So you would have 95,000 + 85,000 + 130,000 = $310,000 in the plane. Add $12,000 for tank reseal, $15,000 for exterior paint and 15,000 for new interior and you end up with $337,000 for an almost new airplane. This is less than half of the cost of a new Acclaim for a plane that is only about 25 knots slower. The downside is that the new engine will take over 2 months to make and other 1 month to R&R. And unless you have the Avionics shop on the same field as the MSC, add at least another 4 months for the avionics upgrade and another 2 for the tank reseal and paint and interior. That's 2 + 1 + 4 +2 = 9 months. Then add another 3 for delays. So the plane will be down for a year. The upside is that you will have an almost new airplane for less than half the cost of a new one. Then, of course, you could decide to buy a Bravo with a run out engine and a somewhat upgraded panel. The upgraded panel would probably consist of at least an Aspen, GTN 750, KX155, and GTX 345. The plane could probably be purchased for $135,000. Add the new engine for $85,000 and you are in it for $220,000, you're down for 3 months, you hope the tanks don't leak, and can live with the old paint an interior. You don't have the dream airplane, but you've bought the avionics at a discount, you don't have as long downtime, and you still have the speed of the Bravo. Also, remember airplanes are not inexpensive to own, so expect it to cost at least $30,000 per year to own for about 100 hours of flying per year. It's expensive, but at least not the annual cost of maintenance on a small turbine prop plane or small jet, and you're not that much slower. I agree with your analysis on the numbers, and although I believe your post assumes putting together a forever plane, it is worth noting that the market on resale on your 337k example particularly would be pretty brutal. I could be wrong but based on what I have been seeing out there perhaps 225-235k if FIKI? Of course, this all goes back to what we have discussed many times in so far as how the market undervalues these amazing planes. Quote
donkaye Posted October 14, 2019 Report Posted October 14, 2019 11 hours ago, Bravoman said: I agree with your analysis on the numbers, and although I believe your post assumes putting together a forever plane, it is worth noting that the market on resale on your 337k example particularly would be pretty brutal. I could be wrong but based on what I have been seeing out there perhaps 225-235k if FIKI? Of course, this all goes back to what we have discussed many times in so far as how the market undervalues these amazing planes. While I agree there is probably no market for the totally upgraded older Bravo with a new zero time engine for someone who hasn't owned an airplane before, for someone like me who's been through the downtime, knows the performance of the Bravo, and is willing to sacrifice 25 knots to save more than half the price of a new airplane, it would be a bargain. For those that want new and price is no issue, of course, the new Acclaim Ultra can't be beat. Quote
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