The Journey From A Mooney To:

[johnggreen]

Over six years ago, I sold my Mooney Bravo and moved to an Aerostar 601P.  Six years can bring a lot of changes to one's life, but, in this instance, they brought me a little more than I had bargained for.  Coy Jacobs, the man most responsible for my buying the Mooney in 2005 died yesterday and my thoughts today, and my post hereon about his death, brought forth a wide realm of thought and recollection.  I think my journey might be of interest to some here, particularly my thoughts on leaving the Bravo for the Aerostar.  There will be, as well, some personal reflections as well that will help put it all into a reasonable perspective.

But, not tonight.

Tomorrow, the next day, or later in the week, I will come back to tell of the six year journey.

Until then, just remember to cherish what you have: family, friends, health, and your Mooney.

John Green

 

[gsxrpilot]

Looking forward to the read...

[steingar]

Carpe diem.  No one knows what tomorrow may bring.

[thinwing]

Having flown both types ,I look forward to your comments

[PaulM]

I almost bought that Bravo 5 years ago... but the seller backed out at the last minute...  

I realized it was yours when I was reading the logs and saying... I've heard these issues before. 

[Hank]

Your story, John, will be an interesting read! The only thing I know about is my journey to a Mooney . . . .

[johnggreen]

Gentlemen and Ladies,

I had every intention of continuing this thread within two or three days of my original post.  Unfortunately, the day after the post, my son in law, 43 years old, suffered a stroke.  He was very lucky, but it required hospitalization and will require some time and therapy to get back to normal.  Karen had to catch the first plane to D.C. where they live to take care of our 7 year old grandson, and I have been preoccupied taking care of the home front by myself.  I was going to fly up to join her Saturday in the 195, but a front was lying right atop most of my route along the Appalachians.  

 

Again, Hugh will be fine.  He's home, already working on his computer and beginning speech therapy this morning.  His mental acuity is fully intact as are most of his motor skills.

 

I "think" that I have learned a lot in the move from the Bravo to a pressurized piston twin and the five years of ownership and will be happy to share.

 

Your patience will be appreciated.

 

Jg

[carusoam]

Good luck with the new challenges, John...

TBIs can be challenging, all are different... a few MSers have some experience in the recovery aspects...

Best regards,

-a-

[johnggreen]

I'm going to recount my Aerostar journey in segments.  Here is the first.

 

The airplane should be defined by the mission.  Sometimes the mission is a want and sometimes a need.  When I sold out my construction business in '99 so I could spend more time with my children, the need for a twin evaporated and a '98 Skylane did nicely.  By 2005, my daughter and her husband were in D.C., my oldest son was at Davidson College in N.C. and my youngest at Northwester in Chicago.  With my wife protesting the loss of the Skylane, I bought the Bravo.  The value of turbocharging and getting over much of the weather made a big difference that even she had to admit.

By 2013, two children are in D.C. and the other in Charlottesville with the expectation that he too would be in D.C.  Our only grandson was there and the Bravo was getting lots of use up the Appalachian chain, north or south side depending on weather.

There were many trips with low IFR and I'm pondering my lack of options should an engine fail.  Then, there is a Columbia crash in those exact conditions along my route, low IFR, engine failure and no place to go.  My want became my need.  A twin or a chute?  

My wife voted for "nothing" else or a new or late model Garmin equipped Cirrus.  I chose the Aerostar 601P.  Pressurization was the deciding factor.  I elected for the Aerostar because of the Lycoming engines.  Two friends had owned 58P Barrons and they almost never flew for being worked on.  Those airplanes were not junk and the owners could afford them.  The 601P seemed to fit the bill.  Speed and relative economy.  The "big engine" A*'s burn lots more fuel, have lost more maintenance, and, in the real world give only about 15 knots more speed.  For those that don't know, "big engine" is still the TIO-540, just boosted up from 290 HP to 350 HP.

I flew my first A*, the one I bought and was amazed: the darn things really are THAT fast.  Make no mistake, the 290 hp of the 601P will flat out leave a 58P in its wake.  I always flew mine very conservatively, about 55% power and got about 214 knots in the mid teens burning 28 gph ROP.  I installed GAMI's, as I had on all my airplanes, but she didn't like LOP at all.  Mostly she just said "screw it" and slowed down like the Bravo.

All for now.

 

Jg

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alextstone]

Very interesting so far, thanks for sharing and please keep them coming!

 

[carusoam]

Aaaah...

The memories of discussing LOP with John’s Bravo, and the valiant effort to define acceptable LOP to John....

Petitioning Lycoming to modernize their air intake with curvy balanced tubes.... the only chance of smooth, high powered, LOP...

 

Looking forward to hearing More, John.

go slowly when you get to the pressurized cabin part...   

Best regards,

-a-

[Bravoman]

On 9/16/2019 at 9:18 AM, carusoam said:

Good luck with the new challenges, John...

TBIs can be challenging, all are different... a few MSers have some experience in the recovery aspects...

Best regards,

-a-

Actually a CVA(cerebrovascular accident)

 

pp thought only, not a doctor!

[carusoam]

34 minutes ago, Bravoman said:

Actually a CVA(cerebrovascular accident)

 

pp thought only, not a doctor!

Sounds like you got some experience too..?

I have had the opportunity to work with people in recovery of TBIs, ABIs, and VCAs...

With these type of injuries... no two are alike... but, they can benefit from similar recovery techniques...

Always happy to discuss the experience I have gained... off line of course... not everyone is comfortable, and it’s not directly Mooney aviation related...

Its amazing how many people you will know going through recovery as you get past the halfway point yourself...  

I know a good recovery book to recommend... Another MSer pointed it out to me once... written by a doctor that had experienced her own TBI...

PP thoughts only, not a physical therapist or cognitive therapist...

Best regards,

-a-

[Bravoman]

31 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Sounds like you got some experience too..?

I have had the opportunity to work with people in recovery of TBIs, ABIs, and VCAs...

With these type of injuries... no two are alike... but, they can benefit from similar recovery techniques...

Always happy to discuss the experience I have gained... off line of course... not everyone is comfortable, and it’s not directly Mooney aviation related...

Its amazing how many people you will know going through recovery as you get past the halfway point yourself...  

I know a good recovery book to recommend... Another MSer pointed it out to me once... written by a doctor that had experienced her own TBI...

PP thoughts only, not a physical therapist or cognitive therapist...

Best regards,

-a-

No experience personally, but  I am an armchair physician after reading medical records for the last 32 years!

[johnggreen]

I have been contacted directly by several Mooney owners looking at Aerostars and feel compelled to "complete" this thread; at least to get to the point of "should I or shouldn't I".

I won't go into details, but after getting my son in law back on his feet, the family was faced with some more challenges.  2019 was a year full of challenges.  With the announcement Saturday of my son and daughter in law expecting our granddaughter in August, perhaps smoother sailing is in store.

I'm going to write this in points, not a narrative, in the interest of time.

First, understand that I owned the 601P with intercooler added by STC.  That is my only direct experience with the airplane.  YOU DO NOT WANT A 601P WITHOUT INTERCOOLERS.  Temp issues will make your flying unpleasant.

The 601P, my choice of models, is a 290HP turbo-normalized engine.  It will legitimately give you 215 knots in the mid teens at 28-30 gph and 240 at 24,000'.  The 350 hp models will add 20 knots and lots of single engine performance

The airplane is fast, efficient, and stable as a 6,000# airplane can be.  High wing loading smooths the ride.  It's single engine handling is benign and stalls come with lots of warning though when it breaks, it breaks and recovery will require some altitude.  Frankly, "handling" is about as good as it gets in all regimens.  You don't flare on landing, just get a positive angle of attack and let her touch down.  Personally, I found it to be one of the easiest airplanes I've ever owned to land consistently.  That being said, don't let it stall on landing or you may be patching holes in the runway.

It is really two airplanes.  One with no flaps or half flaps and one with full flaps.  You will have to have full flaps to land at an acceptable speed, but you do not put them down until you KNOW you have the runway made.  With any weight and full flaps, the airplane will probably not maintain altitude even with full power.  The only time I ever got close to the edge was on final when another airplane cut me off.  I gently raised the nose without full power or dumping flaps and in seconds entered coffin's corner.  DON'T DO THAT.

ILS approaches are so incredibly simple: half flaps, gear down, power set to about 16" and it will settle into a 116 knot approach like on guided rails.

The fuel system is different in every respect, but tricky only to the uneducated or careless.  It will unbalance itself in cruise flight and must be monitored.  You can rebalance with crossed, but DO NOT TAKE OR OR LAND ON CROSS FEED.  THE FUEL WILL UNPORT.  There was a fatal accident at Philadelphia, MS, just before I bought mine by a pilot (military fighter experience and airline pilot) who inadvertently took off with one engine on cross feed.

When I bought the airplane, a friend who is a professional, Challenger pilot and who has 700 hours of Aerostar time in his early logs, that the Aerostar is the highest work load airplane you can find in civilian aviation.  Absolutely true.  I made more (thankfully minor) mistakes making IFR approaches in the Aerostar than all of my 50 plus year flying career combined. There would be a very good argument for only flying the airplane IFR with a qualified co-pilot.

What I really didn't like about the airplane was no manual trim and an electrical capacity that could be overcome.  A/C can't be used at night for instance. In a pressurized airplane, A/C is not an option.

Then, the big negative.  After lift off at 85 knots, you are in no man's land until you accelerate to about 115 knots when she acts like she really wants to fly.  Blue line of 108 may be the best single engine climb speed, but it certainly doesn't feel like it.  Lose and engine right after lift off and you had better have three thousand feet in front of you.

The flaps and gear are hydraulic.  The good side of hydraulic systems is that they are reliable and cheap.  Most parts for repair are nothing but O-rings from your auto parts store.  The down side is they leak just about all the time: hell of a mess.

Forget avionics, paint, interior, and prop & engine reserve,  Annual inspections and maintenance cost me $20,000 a year.  YOU PROBABLY CAN'T DO THAT.  I have an ideal maintenance situation with a reasonable shop that has been doing all my airplane maintenance for many years.  If you use one of the "experienced/known" Aerostar shops, double that.

Though I had no major failures during my ownership, the airplane "nickeled and dimed" me to death with my always having to go to the shop for some minor and difficult to diagnose item.  We spent $2,000 trying to find the fault with the air dump valve light.  You need the air dump valve light.  Forty hours after I sold the airplane, it blew and engine at 24,000' over the high desert of Utah, landed on a remote field without damage but with enough damage to the engine and components that the airplane was sold for salvage.

If you think you are going to overhaul those engines and components, (remember four turbos) for less than 90k per side, you are daffy.  I understand how tempting the entry price can be.  They are relatively cheap to buy, but remember, THEY ARE VERY COMPLEX FORTY YEAR OLD AIRCRAFT THAT WOULD COST UPWARDS OF TWO MILLION DOLLARS TO BUILD TODAY.

The airplane has the ability to eat your lunch, your pocketbook and your children's education savings in a heartbeat.

I will "finally" say something that I have never said publicly.  The Aerostar community, I mean the professional community that supports them, has some good and some bad people.  Problem is, the group protects the group and scratches each other's back.  You will not know who to trust until it is too late.

I will have to say that selling my beautiful Bravo and buying the Aerostar ranks among the dumbest moves in my aviation life.  Yes, there are people with long ownerships who would not own anything else, but they are in the minority, IMO.

Now, at seventy years of age and, soon to be, 60 years of flying under my belt, my wife says that "I should be happy" with my Cessna 180, 195, and Piper Cub.  Throw in first class airline tickets and I suppose she is right.  Still, I damn near cry myself to sleep sometimes thinking about N21448, my Bravo.

So, I'm happy to talk to any of you at any time about Aerostars, but my answer is, well, I think you know.  Ditto for any turbocharged, pressurized, piston twin.

 

Jg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[johnggreen]

Maybe she's right about "should be satisfied".

[exM20K]

1 hour ago, johnggreen said:

I will have to say that selling my beautiful Bravo and buying the Aerostar ranks among the dumbest moves in my aviation life.  Yes, there are people with long ownerships who would not own anything else, but they are in the minority, IMO

JGG;

Thanks for the concluding thoughts.  This paragraph resonated with me: I was close-ish to selling the Acclaim S and buying an R-STOL 340 last year.  Now I have another validating datapoint supporting my decision, and one can never have too many of those!

Enjoy retirement and low-stress flying as you spoil the granddaughter. 

dan

[Bravoman]

 Thanks for sharing. The Bravo is tough to beat. And your description of landing the Aerostar sounds much like the bravo. 

[steingar]

I'd sure as hell be satisfied with a stable like that, but I'm more so with my humble little Mooney.  Two Aerostars went down in the state neighboring mine last year.  Those things can be a handful when the chips are down.

[carusoam]

Nice to see you stop in, John!

Thanks for the update.

Best regards,

-a-

[OSUAV8TER]

Hey JGG! I'm always happy to read a post written by you! I wish you were still on BT.

James G

[KSMooniac]

Hey JGG! I'm always happy to read a post written by you! I wish you were still on BT.
James G

x2!

I've not been active here lately but always enjoy your tales and wisdom. How goes the ranch construction and runway development?

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[johnggreen]

KSM,

The ranch is still like heaven to us but with a few modifications.  In June, I made the very difficult decision to liquidate the entire herd.  Finding competent labor that I can trust when Karen and I travel became an absolute impossibility.  I've sold my properties down to the "cream of the crop", all were built by me and all with an eye to maintenance.  This winter has been a deluge of rain, over 22" here at the ranch and more coming.  Needless to say, dirt work on the airstrip is at a pause.  I figure when it dries out,  I have about ten days of dirt hauling with my own equipment, a couple of days with a hired laser scraper and then we start sprigging the grass.  With luck, it will be usable sometime in August.  When finished, I hope some of you stop to visit.  It will be a full 3,500' and smooth enough for a Mooney, I promise.  Heck, it's only money and my children don't need it thank heavens.

 

James,  I'm not off BT, I just don't post anymore.  I use to have the signature "If I never say another word, I've already said too much."  I think I'm finally becoming a better listener.

 

I did recently receive the Wright Brothers "Master Pilot Award" for flying 59 years (log book starts when I was eleven years old) and not killing myself or anyone else.  I told them that I thought that was the point, but it was a nice gesture.

 

All you guys take care and know that you fly one hell of an airplane.  And, I miss my Bravo.

 

Jg

 

 

[KSMooniac]

I was glad to see the Wright Brothers award news on BT recently, even with your hiatus. It is a nice milestone!

Sounds like you made good decisions to me... Good workers are in short supply everywhere across all industries right now.

Looking forward to the JGG Fly-in!

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[OSUAV8TER]

A well deserved award and let us know about the first ever JGG flyin!