Earth,water or Trees?

[thinwing]

After reading all the posts on when to retract the gear,I was reminded of a discussion my gf and I had while climbing out IFR from Crescent City CA this weekend.She asked if the engine quit right now where would you put it down...at the time we were over the coast range with varied terrain.Deep river valleys,occasional flat spots clear of trees but mostly mountainous terrain with occasional lakes and streams.I know where my immediate action would leave us(probably wet)....so what would you do fellow Mooney Nuts in the event of of an engine failure say 3000 agl over mountainous terrain???...Earth,trees or water???

[alex]

WATER...

[rob]

I live in Memphis, so farms are abundant, and they're usually growing nice soft things (relatively speaking) like soybeans, wheat, corn, cotton, etc. So I'd choose a farm first, a slow moving body of water second (not the Mississippi River), and trees as a very last resort...

As an aside though - If you had to go down into a wooded area, how would you do it? I think what I'd do is basically try to stop the plane's forward progress and stall down into the treetops, trying to remove as much momentum as possible from the scenario....

 

 

[skyking]

First choice is the water. If i had to go for the trees i would try to get the nose between 2 trees. It may rip the wings off, but it will slow you down fast.

i know somebody that had to do this and getting the nose between the trees saved at least 2 lifes that day.

I have personally only had one engine failure in 30 years and i put her down in a freshly cut hay field. Not a scratch on me, my passenger or the plane. It was just a shame that this was the passengers first plane ride in his life!

[scottfromiowa]

In midwest soy bean fields are abundant and pasture.  Corn is also everywhere.  That would be my #1.  Up north away from rivers there are also fields until you get into last 15 minutes of flight...then it's trees or lakes.  I will take lake in a retract plane.

I talked to an old P-51 Pilot who had successfully put a super Decathalon into trees in mountains.  He and his daughter survived with minor injuries.  He said he had talked with R.A Bob Hoover after witnessing a friend lose power in his T6 on take-off.  He stalled the plane at tree-top and died from impact...Bob said fly it all the way to the ground.  DON'T stall it in the trees but fly it all the way down.  Easier said than done...I hope to never have to land in trees or urban area.  Search Dentist James/Jim Michaels Colorado Airplane crash for story.

[jackn]

I do a lot of mountain flying in the winter months. I would put it in a valley, easier for someone to get to me.

[John Pleisse]

Water...warm only. In the Allegany's and Appalachians, (esepcially southwestern WVA into KY), you can go for 100 miles without seeing a suitable field, flat land, etc, leaving your only chance to be strip mines and river beds in between hills. I always take altitude over speed when flying DC to the west.

[David Mazer]

I can't remember where but this question was studied and the answer turned out to be trees.  I'm not sure I understand why but the highest chance for survival was not water but trees.  Seems counter intuitive but that is what I remember.

[jlunseth]

1.  Earth - if you have open terrain this is the way to go.  There is a random chance that a water landing will end with the plane upside down, or the wind causes you to catch a wingtip and cartwheel.  Not good, especially if you are in a Mooney and more especially if you have a passenger between you and the exit.  Flat terra firma is the best.

2.  Water - Better than trees.  Try landing near a shore if possible.

3.  Trees - not a good choice.  Pictures of crashes that end in trees always give me the willies, the people don't seem to make it.  In the mountains, if you have a choice between light green and dark green, go for the light green.  Young growth and therefore not as devastatingly solid. 

[fantom]

As with all thing, it depends, but first terra firma if somewhat clear, gear up; second agua (but not the Everglades with gators, snakes, and the like) gear up because Mooneys can float for a while, last trees because just too many ways to kill you.

[N33GG]

Water depends on the temperature... probably not my first choice. 

Trees, not if I can avoid it.  Here in east Texas, there are lots of areas that would probably dictate a tree landing.  I would try really hard to do anything other than landing in the tops of 120 foot pine trees.  It could be a long ride down!

I know a guy that has been a bush pilot in Alaska forever, and he says when you lose power over the mountains, the key to survival is to land the aircraft going directly up the slope on the side of the mountain.  If you do it right, according to him, you can almost stop the forward motion of the plane right before contact with the ground.  He says all the bush pilots up there know this.  And he has done it several times.  Hope I never have to find out, especially in my Mooney!

[bd32322]

depends on so many factors - the only thing i can say is I would try landing on land first - including land with young/small trees and bushes as long as I have a line of sight through them You apparently need 9 feet of deceleration space to survive a crash - assuming your seatbelts work that is.

landing on water depends on temperature of water - wave conditions - number of passenger (4 passengers are a potential for disaster if you land inverted with a cabin flooding quickly) and have to exit all 4 of them through a single door. Moreover you then realize someone doesnt know how to swim as well as they had thought (panic does things to people). In addition in cape cod, massachusetts we have great white sharks visiting

I would think lightly wooded or bushy terrain is preferable to water as long as you can fly it all the way close to the ground (within 5 feet) without hitting a tree essentially - then let the ground and trees decelerate you (shear off wings etc) - need a line of sight through trees so that you dont have a head-on collision with a tree.

As for thickly wooded tall tree forests - i would land in water before i land in those - just because its very likely that if I try to fly the plane all the way down - my wings are going to get sheared off while I am still 100 feet in the air because of these tall trees - and thats a recipe for certain death - no one can survive a 100 foot fall.

[bd32322]

Quote: N6719N

Water depends on the temperature... probably not my first choice. 

Trees, not if I can avoid it.  Here in east Texas, there are lots of areas that would probably dictate a tree landing.  I would try really hard to do anything other than landing in the tops of 120 foot pine trees.  It could be a long ride down!

I know a guy that has been a bush pilot in Alaska forever, and he says when you lose power over the mountains, the key to survival is to land the aircraft going directly up the slope on the side of the mountain.  If you do it right, according to him, you can almost stop the forward motion of the plane right before contact with the ground.  He says all the bush pilots up there know this.  And he has done it several times.  Hope I never have to find out, especially in my Mooney!

[aviatoreb]

&

Quote: Mazerbase

I can't remember where but this question was studied and the answer turned out to be trees.  I'm not sure I understand why but the highest chance for survival was not water but trees.

nbsp; Seems counter intuitive but that is what I remember.

[fantom]

Trees....who likes trees?

[David Mazer]

Quote: aviatoreb

&

I don't doubt you Dr Mazer but it is so counter intuitive I would love to see it.  

Maybe somehow we think of the trunks of trees but approaching from above they are thin and springy to absorb energy?  Like an exaggerated version of landing in tall grass.  Just guessing.

[mooneygirl]

Well as some of you know from AOPA's Close Calls, Lessons Learned that I have experience landing in the trees.   As mentioned in an earlier post, I had the uprising terrain, without an engine producing the power necessary for flight.

I was going to post pictures, but looking through them just now, I am not able to do it. Still pretty upsetting.

I did have the voice of my instructor in my head saying "if you are going to hit something, hit it as slowly as possible, and hit the least expensive thing."  We began to impact trees after I cut the engine and put the plane into a "landing flare" at 55 mph.

Lots of lessons in my situation, but the two things I did absolutely right: 1) fly the airplane all the way to the ground; 2) don't try to turn around and go back to the airport if you don't have the altitude [i had 150 feet].

 

[David Mazer]

Jolie, however you did it, I'm glad you are all right.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: mooneygirl

Well as some of you know from AOPA's Close Calls, Lessons Learned that I have experience landing in the trees.   As mentioned in an earlier post, I had the uprising terrain, without an engine producing the power necessary for flight.

I was going to post pictures, but looking through them just now, I am not able to do it. Still pretty upsetting.

I did have the voice of my instructor in my head saying "if you are going to hit something, hit it as slowly as possible, and hit the least expensive thing."  We began to impact trees after I cut the engine and put the plane into a "landing flare" at 55 mph.

Lots of lessons in my situation, but the two things I did absolutely right: 1) fly the airplane all the way to the ground; 2) don't try to turn around and go back to the airport if you don't have the altitude [i had 150 feet].

 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: fantom

Trees....who likes trees?

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[scottfromiowa]

I signed up for a free online "tip of the week" a couple of weeks ago.  First one was trees or water.  Answer was trees, but the scenario did NOT take into account having a retractable gear plane and type of water.  A lot of airplanes flip and are upside down in this type of event.  The dis-orientation and panic often prove fatal.  For me going in parallel to shore on a lake with a retractible gear mooney is a MUCH better gamble than going into a mature forest.  YMMV

[Skybrd]

I had an engine failure in a experimental plane over 20 years ago and one thing that helped my survival was wearing a shoulder harness. It happened so quick while flying south over highway 99 from Fresno to Bakersfield. I tried to glide to a dirt area but the descent rate was like a brick and I impacted into some empty wooden crates. I'm glad I didn't try landing on highway 99 since I might have killed someone. I like someone elses post about having extra altitude which I didn't have enough. I'm a firm believer in flying our best and using our resources but to also rely on help from the Lord.  When a emergency comes up it's sudden and we use our resources and let the Lord steer our paths. 

[Hank]

I fly a lot in WV, eastern KY and western NC. The hills range from mild to severe [the highest peak east of the Rockies is Mt. Mitchell, pretty close to KAVL, dad's home]. Many places offer few if any suitable forced landing options. Strip mines look good. Small lakes in the mountains are likely to be deep, even near the shore, with colder water even in the summer. I keep close track of nearby airports along my route, and check AWOS ahead of me enroute, especially in the hazy days of summer when I can't see anything.

(Coming home from the beach yesterday at 8000 msl, we were above the haze layer initially; by GSO the haze was above us, clouds were virtually invisible, and the ground was visible just a few miles ahead despite every weather broadcast saying either "10 miles" or "unrestricted." During descent into Huntington, the ground disappeared completely from 6000 to less than 3000 msl, and I finally saw the field at just under 5 miles. It may as well have been IMC.)

A forced landing under these conditions, or in IMC, is an unpleasant thought. Aim towards an airport, pitch for 105 MPH, and hope for something sort-of level. If it's all forested, I'll take the flattest spot and "land" on the treetops, gear up. Elsewhere, rivers may be attractive if I can parallel the shore, gear up, a wingspan or less away. Corn/bean/hay fields are also attractive, again gear up to prevent catching in a hole or ditch. Of course, a nice wide interstate highway is the best choice, but there aren't a lot of them over this way. "Speed is life. Altitude is life insurance." 7500 is my minimum for going over the Appalachians; MEA is 8600 msl if I go towards Atlanta for about 25 of the 300+ miles, so I take 9000-11,000 for the whole trip even though the final climb is slow. Altitude gives more options . . . valleys have more people . . . always go downstream to find civilization.

1) Earth if wide, flat and paved, or growing crops. Preferably enough room to not go into trees forward or near to either side. Non-interstate highways are a no-no except in the Far West where there are few roadsigns and powerlines. Most 2-lane roads are narrower stripe-to-stripe than my 36' wingspan. [lane width = 12 feet; shoulders vary from 12-48" each]

2) Water if near the shore, not too deep, and nothing else is available. Gear-up water landing should reduce the chance of flipping; not possible in fixed gear. Low-wing should provide additional flotation time for egress, but wave action will reduce it.

3) Trees. Land in the tops. If I overrun the field/crops towards trees, that is when to aim between trunks. Hit the tops as slow as possible above stall speed, and "fly" as long as possible.

These are my thoughts. I sincerely hope to never validate them.

[DaV8or]

Quote: bd32322

hmm that sounds like a good tip - if you are climbing and matching the slope of the mountain you should have reduced speed in the direction of the slope/terrain - neat!

[DaV8or]

Quote: scottfromiowa

I signed up for a free online "tip of the week" a couple of weeks ago.  First one was trees or water.  Answer was trees, but the scenario did NOT take into account having a retractable gear plane and type of water.  A lot of airplanes flip and are upside down in this type of event.  The dis-orientation and panic often prove fatal.  For me going in parallel to shore on a lake with a retractible gear mooney is a MUCH better gamble than going into a mature forest.  YMMV