Standard Range Tank & Range Questions

[irishpilot]

Hello all,

I'm in the process of a Bravo pre-buy and I have a few questions on standard range tanks, how much fuel actually fits in the wings, and range with your power setting since I'm gettting the trend that flying the book numbers isn't recommended. 

1. Confirm standard tanks are 95 gals (89 useable)?

2. I've read in some previous posts that some folk can fit 100 gals if they are patient? Is this confirmed or internet WOM?

3. For those rocking standard tanks, with your power setting, what ranges do you see (assumption is landing with IFR fuel reserves)?

4. For those not flying book numbers, has anyone created a cheat-sheet with recommended power settings, range, fuel/flow, etc. for mission planning? If not, I'll start building it.

I apologize in advance if this has been covered, but I was unable to find it. Thanks in advance!

[PaulM]

We discussed the various capacities in the long bodies here:
https://mooneyspace.com/topic/17789-standard-fuel-long-bodydropped-back-to-89-gallons/?tab=comments#comment-258612

The 100/102 gallons is only with the new filler openings.   Without the notch there is not a reliable path for the trapped air to escape. 

If your plane doesn't have the kit, it can be ordered and installed to officially support 102G in the Bravos. 

 

 

[PDXBravo]

I have a 1998 Bravo.  I have approx 350 hours on the plane in the 18 months since I purchased it.  

 

2 hours ago, irishpilot said:

1. Confirm standard tanks are 95 gals (89 useable)?

Yes; I've never totally drained then filled up to verify.  I fill to the absolute top and put 89 gallons in the fuel flow computer.

2 hours ago, irishpilot said:

2. I've read in some previous posts that some folk can fit 100 gals if they are patient? Is this confirmed or internet WOM?

I've heard the same thing but have been unable to confirm.

2 hours ago, irishpilot said:

3. For those rocking standard tanks, with your power setting, what ranges do you see (assumption is landing with IFR fuel reserves)?

32" and 2400 RPM @ 20gph + (typically) 20 gal reserve = 3.45 hours of endurance (zero wind range is a product of altitude flown and the resultant TAS).

2 hours ago, irishpilot said:

4. For those not flying book numbers, has anyone created a cheat-sheet with recommended power settings, range, fuel/flow, etc. for mission planning? If not, I'll start building it.

ForeFlight Performance Plus has a Mooney Bravo model setup, is very accurate, and should pay for itself in fuel savings on the first flight or two.  I also found a great PAC (Power, Attitude, and Configuration) sheet for IFR ops (approach descent, approach level, ect...) if you want I can pull it from my iPad and send.  

 

 

 

[nfonville]

I have had my bravo about 18 months and 200 hours.  I figure on 22 gal the first hour and 18 gph there after.  I run 29"/2400/1580 to 1600TIT ROP. I personally have flown 4.2 hours and put in right at 80 gallons.

[carqwik]

Simple calc on the Bravo: 20/gph.  With one hour reserve, leaves 70 gals useful. 3.5 hours.  You'll never worry no matter how inaccurate the fuel gauges are (as long as you visually verified it's full to the bottom of the fuel neck.) Yes you can squeeze in about 5 more gal/side...even without the notch.  But that takes time for the last few gallons.

[MIm20c]

In the R (89 usable tanks) you can fit in just under 96 gal usable if you float the caps (meaning any extra pushes out as you close and lock the caps). You need to be slightly patient and get the feel of filling the last bit slowly level with the top of the wing.  It recedes slightly when you stop leaving enough room for the cap.

 

[irishpilot]

thanks all, I'll continue reading. I'll conservatively use the aforementioned fuel calcs, but will want to dial in the EDM 900.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

It might be a year of manufacture consideration...

the fuel neck changed a few times over the years.  The rusty ones are the worst, the Eagle fuel limiting device was second worse, flapper valves on the K’s tanks are the third worse...some fuel necks have been modified by simply drilling vent holes (electric drills and aluminum chips and fuel don’t mix very well)...

The ‘94 O1 has the limitations clearly printed in a few places, including the POH...

Experimentation, and allowing the air to escape through the vent holes in the wing ribs should get you to 102gallons or so...

Of course, the only way to prove this to yourself, is empty the tanks and refill them to the top...  a simple bent pick-up tube or blocked vent hole can easily take gallons away from your useable fuel...

Level ground is important, front to back and side to side...

There isn’t a too full level that would cause a problem, unless flames are present... vents are pretty far up hill...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic.

best regards,

-a-

[irishpilot]

My bi-weekly commute is right on the ragged edge of non-stop flying carrying IFR reserves. 650NM. Can make it East-bound, but West will be wind-dependent.

And yep, I'm used to long flights, piddle packs, and XM radio commutes. Oh, and a good Chipotle gut bomb mid-flight.


Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

Consider checking the K-factor of the FF device...

Also consider adding Ceis digital fuel level sensors to the JPI...

These two independent sources of fuel left in the tanks are worthy upgrades if the plane doesn’t have them...

Others things to check as well for a new 2U TC’d plane...

• that first stretch of pipe from the exhaust valve to the turbo... how many hours are on it, how thin is the pipe...?
• V-clamps... know that they are one time use devices. They have failed when used again. Expensive too.

Make sure your maintenance people are familiar with these challenges...

It helps if you are familiar as well. To ask proper questions of your maintenance team. Exhaust leaks in that area are blow torch hot...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic, just stuff I have read around MS.

Best regards,

-a-

[irishpilot]

Consider checking the K-factor of the FF device...
Also consider adding Ceis digital fuel level sensors to the JPI...

Others things to check as well for a new 2U TC’d plane...

Make sure your maintenance people are familiar with these challenges...
It helps if you are familiar as well. To ask proper questions of your maintenance team. Exhaust leaks in that area are blow torch hot...
PP thoughts only, not a mechanic, just stuff I have read around MS.
Best regards,
-a-

@carusoam, thanks for the tips. That's why this forum is so great. I've heard of some items you listed, but not the 2U TC'd plane...I'll look that up.

I used to wrench on my E with A&P supervision, but my current job takes most of my time, so I'll be paying. The plane will be based at KSKF and Kerrville, TX is just down the road.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

My bad...

New to you plane... new 2U...  

Lots of stuff is really well known... until you are in a plane that is new to you...

Then all those little details need to be proven to yourself, before you can rely on them on actual flights...

I used a PPI to prove everything on the plane was working...

I used Transition Training to prove I was trained in all of their operations...

So many details to get through...

The bigger more expensive plane has so many additional systems to work through.

Things like anti ice systems and O2 systems aren’t very friendly at learning on the fly... or as needed...

The TC can have you flying in the FLs really far away, and extra fast... back-up systems and O2 measuring devices are all the rage...

All important stuff to know before you go...

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Hey...

One way to cover a whole bunch of questions... Transition Training...

Most pilot’s realize that a new plane comes with a lot of different systems and best operating practices...

So TT is the fastest, most complete way to transfer all of that knowledge at a speed that is matched to the pilot’s requirements...

So if your day job is flying B737s... the TT will be different for you compared to a guy that has 1,000 hours and a fresh IR in M20Cs...

Have you thought about or arranged for any TT..?

I know a guy based in the Florida area that does the TT for new Mooney owners... there are a few people that do this with great Mooney backgrounds...

Best regards,

-a-

[irishpilot]

Agreed on knowing systems before flying. In the military, we memorize Critical Action Procedures or Boldface, limits, prohibitive maneuvers, etc. I apply that to every new civilian plane I fly and it serves me well.

For the Bravo, I am focusing on:
general knowledge & limitations
engine emergency procedures
engine out glide
IMC engine-out penetration procedures
electrical & vacuum emergencies
FIKI system
electrical system
fuel system
O2 system emergency procedures
gear system & emergencies

I'll branch out to the more non time-critical stuff after I get a handle on this list. I'm used to flying complex and high performance jets & turbines, so I don't take the Bravo lightly. However, looking forward to 200 kts in the FLs!

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[irishpilot]

Hey...
One way to cover a whole bunch of questions... Transition Training...
Most pilot’s realize that a new plane comes with a lot of different systems and best operating practices...
So TT is the fastest, most complete way to transfer all of that knowledge at a speed that is matched to the pilot’s requirements...
So if your day job is flying B737s... the TT will be different for you compared to a guy that has 1,000 hours and a fresh IR in M20Cs...
Have you thought about or arranged for any TT..?
I know a guy based in the Florida area that does the TT for new Mooney owners... there are a few people that do this with great Mooney backgrounds...
Best regards,
-a-

@carusoam, absolutely! My business partner and I both have day jobs flying and are all about TT. We we're looking at TT in Texas, but haven't lined anything up just yet. Because of our schedule, we'd need to knock it out over 2-3 days front-loaded. Any recommendations are always welcome.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Awful_Charlie]

Working out your tank capacity is one of those things probably best done on each individual aircraft by the owner, but this I agree is going to be difficult on a pre-buy.

Even after adding the LRT, once a year I still try to drain one tank dry and then refill if from a known pump, and then tabulate the results. Before adding them I could regularly get 96USG, and afterwards 132, but there is no guarantee you'll get the same, although I would expect the figures not to be substantially different.

For the resultant range, if you search the forum for "Altsel.zip" you should find a spreadsheet I put together with the book figures which you can tweak as required - I seem to get pretty close to book in the cruise (maybe even slightly better) but then I use 30" 2200 LOP, and I get a bit worse than book in the climb - this is probably due to me being more conservative about CHTs.

I do have another spreadsheet I keep on my knee board with some figures on it, but I don't have it available at the moment - it is mainly extracts from the PoH and conversions but I'll dig you a copy out later

Good luck with the pre-buy!

Ben

[slowflyin]

Mine is a 94 model and I can confirm the 102 with patience.   Earlier this year I drained the entire system and started with zero.  Added unusable……..     I fly with a JPI w/fuel flow and have installed the Cies sending units.   Between the two I've become more comfortable fully utilizing the ACs capabilities.   My last AC was an F model with 64 gallons and honestly fuel calcs were a no brainer.  The Bravo requires more attention but I've found it to be an extremely capable long range AC.  Note; with my AC the wing gauges are accurate on the ground and the panel gauges are accurate in the air.   

[carusoam]

10 hours ago, irishpilot said:

@carusoam, absolutely! My business partner and I both have day jobs flying and are all about TT. We we're looking at TT in Texas, but haven't lined anything up just yet. Because of our schedule, we'd need to knock it out over 2-3 days front-loaded. Any recommendations are always welcome.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 

Our most popular TTer and MSer and Mooney CFII and Chairman(?) of MooneySummit... Mike Elliot @mike_elliott Mike is a hard worker and often has a busy schedule... contacting earlier is better than later...

Another place Mooney CFIIs hang there shingles out...   https://themooneyflyer.com/cfi.html

TTing is one of the most rewarding experiences for a new owner.  Exploring the entire envelope that the Mooney has to offer.

With a Bravo, the speed is impressive... climb rate, cruise speed in the FLs, and descent rate in a practiced E-descent with gear down and brakes out....

I employed Mr. Bob Cabe for my TT with the O about a decade ago... Bob was in the KSAT area at the time...  happy to forward a cell number if you need it.

I’m enjoying the thought of it... 

PP thoughts only, not a CFII...

Best regards,

-a-

[slowflyin]

+1 for Bob Cabe.   Excellent experience last year transitioning to my Bravo.

[nfonville]

I used Jerry Johnson out of KAFW for my transition training. I have flown with him for 20 years since I bought my first C-model Mooney. He is another good option if he is available.  His son Mark is in the Houston area and would be another great option.

[daytonabch04]

11 hours ago, slowflyin said:

+1 for Bob Cabe.   Excellent experience last year transitioning to my Bravo.

+2 for Bob. Great guy and knocked me out in about 2 full days. 

[irishpilot]

Follow-up. I flew with Bob Cabe and he was great. I've got a few hrs now on the Bravo and the EDM fuel calcs are spot on. The Leaning function is super slick and works as advertised to find peak TIT.

Thanks again for all the great advice!

Fly Safe,
Safety Forum Mod