Raising Flaps While Gear is Retracting

[HopePilot]

So on a 100F+ degree, humid, day we have to execute a go around.  We are at about 500 ft, with very little climb rate, as I retract the gear.  Without telling me my CFI raises the flaps (doesn't "milk them").  This is followed by a pronounced sinking feeling, like the floor has fallen out.  I now have my hands full as I am working to maintain our airspeed until everything has cycled.  The thing I don't get is that he used to own an "E."  It was probably quite a bit lighter (my "J" is on the heavy side), and maybe he could get away with it.  Opinions?  I don't usually get mad, but I was annoyed.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Were you around 500 feet to start the go-around procedure?  As soon as you have a positive rate and under maximum gear retraction speed, put that gear away!

My preferred sequence for most scenarios

I would have raised the flaps to the takeoff position first, followed by raising the gear.  With sufficient airspeed, raise the flaps from takeoff (~15 deg) to zero.  Continue climb at Vx or Vy as needed.

[HopePilot]

No, we started the go around at about 10 feet, and I, also, started gear retraction earlier than 500, but it was still cycling.  The 500ft is a very rough estimation (probably 400ish), of where we were at that point. I also delayed retraction a few seconds longer hoping for a more positive rate of climb.

[alex]

Yeah, I'd be ticked off. Is he aware that you already have your PPL?

[ELT]

The problem could be that he owned an E and had muscle memory for it.  The E has no partial up flap detent and the gear is manuel.  The E model go aroound is gear up on positive rate of climb and by 80 mph, then flaps full up.  The rapid retraction of the manuel gear allows the E to climb and accelerate.  Perhaps, the instuctor needs training in the different systems in the J. 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Again, I think the flaps (if they were at 33 deg or so) should have been raised first, followed by the gear on indication of a positive rate.  You're not going to help your rate of climb much more if the gear is down.  Get the gear up and get some altitude.

That said, it ain't a 2-person job unless you are making a mistake that your CFI somehow saw.  Your CFI, at the most, should have raised the flaps to the 15-20 degree range.  Going full up all at once made what he did unacceptable.

[HopePilot]

Wait a minute...you have to have a PPL to fly one of these things?

On a serious note, he is my commercial instructor, and he's been with me when I've made the first turnoff at Catalina.  I'm not sure what he was thinking (which has me second guessing myself).

[bgpilot1]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

That said, it ain't a 2-person job unless you are making a mistake that your CFI somehow saw. 

[HopePilot]

I think ELT nailed it.  He has never touched anything in the past, so seeing us with an anemic rate of climb he resorted to his previous memory.

[Ned Gravel]

Quote: HopePilot

I think ELT nailed it.  He has never touched anything in the past, so seeing us with an anemic rate of climb he resorted to his previous memory.

[carusoam]

Hope,

Seems like a good time to speak with your favorite flight instructor and see what he had in mind...

Sounds like human error.

Best regards,

-a-

[lahso]

I can see why you would be annoyed. When I'm flying with a student (Private license or greater) I don't jump in unless safety of flight is questionable, and this doesn't sound like it fit the description. Have a calm talk on the ground with him and question why he did that. Probably a mistake, and he may own up to it. If you decide to continue flying with him, make clear the PIC boundaries and what efforts you need out of him.

[Shadrach]

I'd have been annoyed.  I imagine that most Mooneys will climb full flaps just fine, mine does...not max performance by a long shot...but fine, unless the DA is so high that performance is already marginal.

[John Pleisse]

On a executed go-around, I wouldn't touch the flaps until I reach at least 500 agl with a +500fpm rate. What purpose is served? In any aircraft? A recipe for a pavement snack.

[MooneyMitch]

Cockpit management is needed here Mr. Hope!  Unless there is an impending danger, the instructor should not have done that without some previous communication with the pilot in command.

[Frosty]

With my K, there is a very significant nose up bias with either the the gear or the flaps coming up.  Both at once requires both hands on the yoke to keep the nose down and would be a serious challenge using manual trim.  On any take off or go around I start the electric trim first to get a head start and keep the gear and flap motion sequential.  The PNF interfering with a qualified PF is unacceptable.  Starting the flaps at the wrong time unexpectedly is serious (potentially fatal).  I fired an instructor, & lost a friend, because he pulled on the yoke causing us to ballon on a hot landing.  I knew we were hot and was waiting for the speed to bleed off, he wanted the nose up.  Immediate full throttle resulted in a hard landing instead of broken airplane.

[FlyDave]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Were you around 500 feet to start the go-around procedure?  As soon as you have a positive rate and under maximum gear retraction speed, put that gear away!

My preferred sequence for most scenarios

I would have raised the flaps to the takeoff position first, followed by raising the gear.  With sufficient airspeed, raise the flaps from takeoff (~15 deg) to zero.  Continue climb at Vx or Vy as needed.

[PTK]

Quote: HopePilot

So on a 100F+ degree, humid, day we have to execute a go around.  We are at about 500 ft, with very little climb rate, as I retract the gear.  Without telling me my CFI raises the flaps (doesn't "milk them").  This is followed by a pronounced sinking feeling, like the floor has fallen out.  I now have my hands full as I am working to maintain our airspeed until everything has cycled.  The thing I don't get is that he used to own an "E."  It was probably quite a bit lighter (my "J" is on the heavy side), and maybe he could get away with it.  Opinions?  I don't usually get mad, but I was annoyed.

[danb35]

Quote: allsmiles

The law, from private pilot days, says never ever clean the flaps before positive rate of climb.

[jetdriven]

Quote: Mitch

Cockpit management is needed here Mr. Hope!  Unless there is an impending danger, the instructor should not have done that without some previous communication with the pilot in command.

[jetdriven]

Quote: HopePilot

No, we started the go around at about 10 feet, and I, also, started gear retraction earlier than 500, but it was still cycling.  The 500ft is a very rough estimation (probably 400ish), of where we were at that point. I also delayed retraction a few seconds longer hoping for a more positive rate of climb.

[jetdriven]

Quote: Frosty

With my K, there is a very significant nose up bias with either the the gear or the flaps coming up.  Both at once requires both hands on the yoke to keep the nose down and would be a serious challenge using manual trim.  On any take off or go around I start the electric trim first to get a head start and keep the gear and flap motion sequential.  The PNF interfering with a qualified PF is unacceptable.  Starting the flaps at the wrong time unexpectedly is serious (potentially fatal).  I fired an instructor, & lost a friend, because he pulled on the yoke causing us to ballon on a hot landing.  I knew we were hot and was waiting for the speed to bleed off, he wanted the nose up.  Immediate full throttle resulted in a hard landing instead of broken airplane.

[HopePilot]

"How did you get from 10 feet to 500 feet per minute with an anemic rate of climb?"   

Again, I'm not exactly sure how high I was at the precise moment, as I was watching the VSI and the airspeed indicator (anywhere from 300-500 ft, noting we weren't climbing much).  In other words, I had good airspeed in ground effect, but I traded most of that energy when I made the initial climb.  As we started to climb above ground effect we discovered we had an unusually low climb rate.  Not a big deal if you start cleaning up the plane, but it has to be done properly.  Seeing we weren't climbing very fast, my CFI reached over and dumped the flaps without asking.  I was already working the problem, however, and the gear was still cycling. This happened very quickly after takeoff so it's really academic to discuss how high or how long after leaving ground effect, but it happened quickly.  All I can say, is don't raise your flaps (all the way) and gear at the same time on a hot day, because you won't like the sensation.

[jetdriven]

im still not connecting here.  If you had a terrible rate of climb, say 250 FPM thats two whole minutes flying with the gear and flaps down? 

As soon as I commit to the go around and a positive rate of climb, its gear up, it takes 5 seconds.  flaps up incrementally.

[M016576]

I agree with Jetdriven on this.

I think this is a conversation best saved for your instructor, not necessarily this forum (unless it's to warn other pilots off on a CFI's unsafe practices.. not saying that is the case here, as I wasn't in the aircraft and I don't feel like we have the full story)