Tach Time During Annual Inspection

[Davidv]

Just to weigh in on the MSC vs. non-MSC, I took my plane to Phil Jiminez this week to get an oil change and a few other minor things done.  When I did the Pre-buy at a MSC a few months ago and took it to another mechanic to get something checked out, they BOTH unscrewed the cowl flaps to remove the lower cowling.  Me being a new Bravo owner thought this was perfectly normal.  So when Phil is unscrewing the lower cowling I ask him casually if he’s going to unscrew the cowl flaps and he says “why would I do that? You don’t need to touch the cowl flaps to remove the cowling”.

We both thought it was pretty funny that the MSC made it part of their SOP to do this.  After all, it does add some time to the process ;).

[cliffy]

FOOD FOR THOUGHT-    Below is a cut from the first page of AC 43-13 (format changed a little in the cut) showing the "purpose" of the AC. I have emboldened and underlined the one item that may be missed by most everyone when using this AC. 

My question (and it really is a question to all here, not a hit or trap). my question is - "how does one do an annual by reference to this ACs Appendix D ONLY and NOT also have to follow and make reference to the Mooney material as Mooney has supplied repair and maintenance instructions? "

TITLE 14 OF THE CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS (14 CFR) GUIDANCE MATERIAL Subject: ACCEPTABLE METHODS, Date: 9/8/98 AC No: 43.13-1B TECHNIQUES, AND PRACTICESAIRCRAFT Initiated by: AFS-640 Change: 1 INSPECTION AND REPAIR 1. PURPOSE. This advisory circular (AC) contains methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator for the inspection and repair of nonpressurized areas of civil aircraft, only when there are no manufacturer repair or maintenance instructions. This data generally pertains to minor repairs. The repairs identified in this AC may only be used as a basis for FAA approval for major repairs. The repair data may also be used as approved data, and the AC chapter, page, and paragraph listed in block 8 of FAA form 337 when: a. the user has determined that it is appropriate to the product being repaired;

 

If doing an annual on an old Funk or maybe a Fleetwing Seabird (look those up if you are unfamiliar :-) where there are no manufacturer's instructions available, Appendix D might be usable in that case (as I read this) but how do we reconcile using it on a Mooney given this preamble to the use of 43.13?  It looks to me that we are stuck with using the Mooney guidance for an annual. 

Does anyone know of a "Certified Repair Station" doing annuals on Mooneys, by reference to Appendix D only and not following the Mooney 100 hr Check List? I put that in quotes as its a legal definition. I'm curious and willing to learn. Even old dogs can learn new tricks :-)

[Shadrach]

55 minutes ago, cliffy said:

FOOD FOR THOUGHT-    Below is a cut from the first page of AC 43-13 (format changed a little in the cut) showing the "purpose" of the AC. I have emboldened and underlined the one item that may be missed by most everyone when using this AC. 

My question (and it really is a question to all here, not a hit or trap). my question is - "how does one do an annual by reference to this ACs Appendix D ONLY and NOT also have to follow and make reference to the Mooney material as Mooney has supplied repair and maintenance instructions? "

TITLE 14 OF THE CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS (14 CFR) GUIDANCE MATERIAL Subject: ACCEPTABLE METHODS, Date: 9/8/98 AC No: 43.13-1B TECHNIQUES, AND PRACTICESAIRCRAFT Initiated by: AFS-640 Change: 1 INSPECTION AND REPAIR 1. PURPOSE. This advisory circular (AC) contains methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator for the inspection and repair of nonpressurized areas of civil aircraft, only when there are no manufacturer repair or maintenance instructions. This data generally pertains to minor repairs. The repairs identified in this AC may only be used as a basis for FAA approval for major repairs. The repair data may also be used as approved data, and the AC chapter, page, and paragraph listed in block 8 of FAA form 337 when: a. the user has determined that it is appropriate to the product being repaired;

 

If doing an annual on an old Funk or maybe a Fleetwing Seabird (look those up if you are unfamiliar :-) where there are no manufacturer's instructions available, Appendix D might be usable in that case (as I read this) but how do we reconcile using it on a Mooney given this preamble to the use of 43.13?  It looks to me that we are stuck with using the Mooney guidance for an annual. 

Does anyone know of a "Certified Repair Station" doing annuals on Mooneys, by reference to Appendix D only and not following the Mooney 100 hr Check List? I put that in quotes as its a legal definition. I'm curious and willing to learn. Even old dogs can learn new tricks :-)

My IA does not insist on changing the oil at annual. He made a note of the last oil change date, time in service and filter condition (I kept the filter media as a courtesy).  If he wanted to change it that would be fine by me.That being said, I think draining 10 hour oil is not only a waste of oil, but it doesn’t do much for folks who are doing routine analysis at set intervals.

I typically change my oil between 30 and 40 hours.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, cliffy said:

FOOD FOR THOUGHT-    Below is a cut from the first page of AC 43-13 (format changed a little in the cut) showing the "purpose" of the AC. I have emboldened and underlined the one item that may be missed by most everyone when using this AC. 

My question (and it really is a question to all here, not a hit or trap). my question is - "how does one do an annual by reference to this ACs Appendix D ONLY and NOT also have to follow and make reference to the Mooney material as Mooney has supplied repair and maintenance instructions? "

TITLE 14 OF THE CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS (14 CFR) GUIDANCE MATERIAL Subject: ACCEPTABLE METHODS, Date: 9/8/98 AC No: 43.13-1B TECHNIQUES, AND PRACTICESAIRCRAFT Initiated by: AFS-640 Change: 1 INSPECTION AND REPAIR 1. PURPOSE. This advisory circular (AC) contains methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator for the inspection and repair of nonpressurized areas of civil aircraft, only when there are no manufacturer repair or maintenance instructions. This data generally pertains to minor repairs. The repairs identified in this AC may only be used as a basis for FAA approval for major repairs. The repair data may also be used as approved data, and the AC chapter, page, and paragraph listed in block 8 of FAA form 337 when: a. the user has determined that it is appropriate to the product being repaired;

 

If doing an annual on an old Funk or maybe a Fleetwing Seabird (look those up if you are unfamiliar :-) where there are no manufacturer's instructions available, Appendix D might be usable in that case (as I read this) but how do we reconcile using it on a Mooney given this preamble to the use of 43.13?  It looks to me that we are stuck with using the Mooney guidance for an annual. 

Does anyone know of a "Certified Repair Station" doing annuals on Mooneys, by reference to Appendix D only and not following the Mooney 100 hr Check List? I put that in quotes as its a legal definition. I'm curious and willing to learn. Even old dogs can learn new tricks :-)

You're conflating FAR Part 43 Appendix D, which is a regulatory requirement, and Advisory Circular 43.13, which is accepted data for doing repairs on non-pressurized areas of aircraft.

Many aircraft don't have maintenance manuals, or the maintenance manuals are inadequate for providing direction on doing certain repairs.   When a Maintenance or Service Manual doesn't exist or doesn't provide direction on how to do a specific repair, then AC43.13 (which is an Advisory Circular) can be used as Accepted Data (which has legal meaning) in performing a repair.   AC43.13 is advisory only and has pretty much nothing to do with requirements for annual inspections.

FAR Part 43 is Federal Aviation Regulation, not advisory, and Appendix D of that part outlines the scope of an annual inspection.   It makes no reference to manufacturer requirements or manuals, other than indirectly for determine "proper" conditions.

 

Edited March 9, 2019 by EricJ

[cliffy]

YUP. brain fart on my part Thanks for the clarification. 

[EricJ]

4 minutes ago, cliffy said:

YUP. brain fart on my part Thanks for the clarification. 

This stuff ain't always obvious or straightforward, and lots of lawyers make their livings on these distinctions.   There's a lot to learn and know, so I think the discussions are always useful, especially for those of us who don't do this every day.

 

[David_H]

What do people do about washing down when the temperatures are low?

[cliffy]

Use hot water?  :-) :-)    Its a joke - Its a joke :-)

[kortopates]

As far as I know, only owners wash planes at the wash rack with water and soap. Mechanics clean with varasol or equivalent in the hangar. It's better for the airplane too.


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[David_H]

2 minutes ago, EricJ said:

This stuff ain't always obvious or straightforward, and lots of lawyers make their livings on these distinctions.

Lawyers usually don't get involved in matters such as these until someone gets hurt.

It's just not cost effective to involve attorneys when a shop does a sub-par job. There isn't much of a way to remedy poor work.

[Hank]

6 hours ago, David_H said:

What do people do about washing down when the temperatures are low?

Personally, I use this:

https://washwax.com/

Red for the belly, Blue for the rest of the plane. No water needed.

[Shadrach]

8 hours ago, kortopates said:

As far as I know, only owners wash planes at the wash rack with water and soap. Mechanics clean with varasol or equivalent in the hangar. It's better for the airplane too.


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I prefer low oder mineral spirits out of an air sprayer.

[Hank]

8 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I prefer low oder mineral spirits out of an air sprayer.

I've heard of people cleaning their engines that way, but the plane? What's it do to the wax?

[Shadrach]

39 minutes ago, Hank said:

I've heard of people cleaning their engines that way, but the plane? What's it do to the wax?

It’s just for the belly which I don’t wax. It’s a easy way to blast any funk out of the nooks and crannies and is 100% non-corrosive.

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I prefer low oder mineral spirits out of an air sprayer.

Odorless paint thinner is even better - no smell at all.

[Yetti]

13 hours ago, cliffy said:

FOOD FOR THOUGHT-    Below is a cut from the first page of AC 43-13 (format changed a little in the cut) showing the "purpose" of the AC. I have emboldened and underlined the one item that may be missed by most everyone when using this AC. 

My question (and it really is a question to all here, not a hit or trap). my question is - "how does one do an annual by reference to this ACs Appendix D ONLY and NOT also have to follow and make reference to the Mooney material as Mooney has supplied repair and maintenance instructions? "

TITLE 14 OF THE CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS (14 CFR) GUIDANCE MATERIAL Subject: ACCEPTABLE METHODS, Date: 9/8/98 AC No: 43.13-1B TECHNIQUES, AND PRACTICESAIRCRAFT Initiated by: AFS-640 Change: 1 INSPECTION AND REPAIR 1. PURPOSE. This advisory circular (AC) contains methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator for the inspection and repair of nonpressurized areas of civil aircraft, only when there are no manufacturer repair or maintenance instructions. This data generally pertains to minor repairs. The repairs identified in this AC may only be used as a basis for FAA approval for major repairs. The repair data may also be used as approved data, and the AC chapter, page, and paragraph listed in block 8 of FAA form 337 when: a. the user has determined that it is appropriate to the product being repaired;

 

If doing an annual on an old Funk or maybe a Fleetwing Seabird (look those up if you are unfamiliar :-) where there are no manufacturer's instructions available, Appendix D might be usable in that case (as I read this) but how do we reconcile using it on a Mooney given this preamble to the use of 43.13?  It looks to me that we are stuck with using the Mooney guidance for an annual. 

Does anyone know of a "Certified Repair Station" doing annuals on Mooneys, by reference to Appendix D only and not following the Mooney 100 hr Check List? I put that in quotes as its a legal definition. I'm curious and willing to learn. Even old dogs can learn new tricks :-)

So at least in Mooney S&M P/N 106.  In Section 2 it has the scope of the annual inspection.  Since you have to have a S&M to work on the plane, they are just killing 2 birds with one stone.  The Mooney S&M would trump the FAR.    For the original OP.   I noticed that landing light inspection was one of the things mentioned.

[Davidv]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I prefer low oder mineral spirits out of an air sprayer.

+1 for mineral spirits on the belly, it cleans any oil very well.

[Yetti]

Goop hand cleaner and a roll of blue towels makes less of a mess

 

[David_H]

We've used mineral spirits in the past as well. Sometimes it takes a while though.

I haven't tried Goop hand cleaner for cleaning the plane. That might work really well for bugs on the cowl as well as the leading edges. I expect Goop would remove most anything that isn't paint.

[Yetti]

I use water in a spray bottle and a blue rag for the bugs.   Walk once around the plane spraying down.  Walk once more around the plane wiping down leading edges.

[Shadrach]

22 minutes ago, David_H said:

We've used mineral spirits in the past as well. Sometimes it takes a while though.

I haven't tried Goop hand cleaner for cleaning the plane. That might work really well for bugs on the cowl as well as the leading edges. I expect Goop would remove most anything that isn't paint.

You need a sprayer. Fine but wide high velocity mist at low pressure. It’s like pressure washing but without the risk of damage.

 

[Hank]

With no scrubbing, no rinsing, minimal efforts and some cheap terrycloth towels from your favorite discount store, 

This does my 1-piece belly in about 3-5 minutes:

This does the rest of the plane (but not the windows), although I generally use one towel tomscrub and two to buff and take 2-3 afternoons to do the whole plane (because it's a lot of metal):metal

[MikeOH]

25 minutes ago, Hank said:

With no scrubbing, no rinsing, minimal efforts and some cheap terrycloth towels from your favorite discount store, 

This does my 1-piece belly in about 3-5 minutes:

This does the rest of the plane (but not the windows), although I generally use one towel tomscrub and two to buff and take 2-3 afternoons to do the whole plane (because it's a lot of metal):metal

My method EXACTLY!

[PT20J]

Isn’t that the stuff made with coconut oil? Seems to take a LOT of buffing to get the smears out when I tried it. 

[Hank]

17 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Isn’t that the stuff made with coconut oil? Seems to take a LOT of buffing to get the smears out when I tried it. 

Then squirt it again. Or change to a dry buffer.

It's also the easier post-flight bug remover ever.