Mooney for CFI checkride? (performance take offs/ landings)

[FFpilotChris]

I have had my plane for about a month now and put almost 50 hours in her.  1974 C model.      I just got my commercial in December and I am working on my CFI now.    All of my training previous to the mooney was in a 172 and  a 152.  Needless to say I am in a much different airplane.  I am going over the PTS for my CFI checkride that is scheduled about two weeks from now and I am thinking it might be better to rent a 172 for the checkride because of the performance take off and landing differences the airplanes have.

First of all I cannot really find checklists for any the performance take offs and landing.  Do they exist?   I know everyone has a different method on mooneyspace forums

I might not even be required to do the power off 180 and the short field, but its up to the DPE.   I am still getting used to how much this plane floats, and I know I can't just push down the nose like the 172 to hit my spot.

 

I am fine with all the maneuvers in the air and I actually prefer the stall characteristics of the mooney when compared to the cessna.  Also 8s on pylons do not require as much work when I am using the mooney with the constant speed prop.  Chandelles are much better in the Mooney as well.   Pretty much my plane is spectacular when it comes to maneuvers.  It is just hard to gauge precise landings with 50 hours in the plane.  

Maybe the only way to do it is with hours of traffic patterns and short approaches...

 

What do you guys think?

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

I'm working on the Commercial now in my Mooney. The power off 180's don't seem to be that difficult, but I've got over 800 hours in the Mooney. I've also got Speed brakes, which I don't always use, but can be used if I need them.

[MooneyPoor]

I just got my Mooney and have scored a total of 2.5hrs and 1 landing. I'm starting the CFI flying now and made a decision early to just go with a 172 for the CFI initial and not make the ride anymore adventurous than it needs to be. I'll do the CFII in the Mooney I'm sure---by then I'll have more hours in the plane and the expectations are different for the checkrides. I'm actually doing some patterns, maneuvers, and performance stuff in Mooney today as part of my check out and then jumping in the right seat for a lap or two.

 

[Boilermonkey]

I'm also working on my commercial in an M20C.  I don't think you'll have a problem with anything, just practice.  The Mooney is less forgiving if you are off speed on approach, but you need to be on your numbers anyway or you might get dinged.  

If you can't find the numbers the FAA has guidelines for various speeds...however here are the ones from my POH:

Best Glide:  100MPH prop stopped, 105MPH windmilling

Best Rate Climb:  105MPH (dropping to 90MPH at 10K density alt.)

Best Angle of Climb: 80MPH

Enroute Climb: 115-120MPH @25/25

VLE: 120MPH

VF: 100MPH

Normal landing (pg20 of POH):  Downwind 100MPH, Base 90 HPH, Final 80 MPH

 

Power off 180 is straight forward.   Abeam the 1000ft markers on the runway, chop the power, pitch for glide, begin a smooth turn towards the runway, drop gear on base, flaps on final, and hold it off until you get to the markers.

[Immelman]

I did my initial CFI in my M20E. It went fine.

Do the checkride in an airplane you are very familiar with. Two weeks out and if you're not solid on things... that gives me pause. You want to have things dialed by now. The CFI is a teaching/talking ride: you explain as you demonstrate, and if you make a mistake that's OK but you'll need to identify the error and point that out. So having a good mastry of each maneuver and how to correct errors (knowing the airplane) is important.

I would consider a different airplane you know well, or postpone and practice for several more weeks from the right seat of your Mooney.

As far as checklists for performance takeoffs/landings.... Does it really matter? Read the POH, in all of its ancient glory, and go from there using that and best practices from the FAA pubs and your judgement. That's part of being an instructor. The procedures are pretty conventional. About the only things you really need are speeds to pitch for: Vx and Vy which should be published, and a good short field approach speed (1.2-1.3 Vso, which you can and should calculate for your weight while performing the maneuver). A precise airspeed to plan for will yield predictable landing performance.

In many respects a short field landing is a normal landing. No change.

A soft field landing is also about the same.... when done for real (e.g. on grass) you'll be keeping some power in on the landing roll to keep moving. Maybe a touch of power above idle in the flare. The yoke is in your lap taxiing. Conventional.

Soft field takeoff, just like in the cessna.... yoke in the lap, when the mains break, level off, get to a normal climb and go.

Short field takeoff, to me, that's close a normal takeoff. I never worried about a rotation speed. I trimmed the airplane for a good initial Vx climb (know the airplane and what that trim is), kept a little pressure on the yoke during the roll, and it will lift off when its ready.

PS I dont know if you have a J-bar Mooney or not but it was not designed to be operated from the right seat. I got somewhat comfortable with it, but it was awkward and I skinned the knuckle on my left thumb against the bottom of the instrument panel multiple times while operating the gear. Practice makes perfect.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Immelman

[Hank]

8 minutes ago, Boilermonkey said:

If you can't find the numbers the FAA has guidelines for various speeds...however here are the ones from my POH:

Best Glide:  100MPH prop stopped, 105MPH windmilling

Best Rate Climb:  105MPH (dropping to 90MPH at 10K density alt.) straight-line variation from 100 MPH IAS at sea level, decreasing approximately 1 MPH per 1000 feet increase in altitude, to 91 MPH IAS at 10,000 feet.

Best Angle of Climb: 80MPH (full power, gear and flaps up)

Enroute Climb: 115-120MPH @25/25 26/2600 [but I climb WOT/2700]

VLE: 120MPH

VF: 100MPH 125 MPH

Normal landing (pg20 of POH):  Downwind 100 90 MPH, Base 90 HPH, Final 80 85 MPH, slowing to 75 MPH "over the fence" minus 5 MPH per 300 lb below gross for that landing

I generally pull Throttle to Idle once I know I have the field made, which is often ~1/4 mile final unless the wind is really strong. This will shock Piper pilots who are riding along with you. Just remember the mantra, Elevator for Speed, Power for Altitude.

Chris, I've marked changes for my 1970 electric gear M20-C above, with some notes of what I do.

Hope this helps! Just practice, practice, practice.

Here's the Landing page from my Owners Manual, with a brief discussions about Short Field landings:

There doesn't seem to be anything about "Performance Takeoffs," i.e., for short or obstructed fields. the only thing I do different in those events is to make sure I use Takeoff Flaps; most of my takeoffs are Flaps Up unless I am heavy or the field is short. Note that I got my license and based my Mooney for 7 years at a 3000' field with nice, tall trees at both ends, and a displaced threshold at one end only, but event hen unless I was heavy [4 adults or baggage to the ceiling], I didn't use flaps for taking off. Every takeoff must be a Performance Takeoff! 

Oh yeah--don't wait to raise the gear. Once I am off the ground, seat feels vertical acceleration, ground dropping away and IVSI confirms climb, the gear goes up. This is often complete by treetop level. Leaving them down only reduces rate of climb, which extends the time you are in the danger zone re: engine problem on departure and unable to return to land.

[FFpilotChris]

Ok.  Thanks for the help everyone.  I think I just need more pattern work in the right seat to get the landings perfect.

[bradp]

Do folks who have done this type of training in a Mooney have the right set of brake pedals mod?

 

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, Immelman said:

good short field approach speed (1.2-1.3 Vso, which you can and should calculate for your weight while performing the maneuver). A precise airspeed to plan for will yield predictable landing performance.

 

⬆️ ⬆️ THIS ⬆️⬆️

1.3Vso for a normal landing, 1.2Vso for a short field, based upon your landing weight.  In my Mooney, with half fuel and by myself, that's about 65mph.  With more fuel and a passenger, about 70mph.  Make your aim point about 2 runway stripes short of your intended touchdown point.

You'll feel like you're going too slow, but then you'll be surprised at how much elevator authority you still have in the flare.  And of course, never try to force a landing in a Mooney by pushing forward on the yoke- it'll fight back, porpoise, and you can catch the prop.

I got my commercial about 20 years ago in my first M20C.  Goood luck!

[Immelman]

25 minutes ago, bradp said:

Do folks who have done this type of training in a Mooney have the right set of brake pedals mod?

 

No. I hired an independent CFI to prep me for my CFI and we transferred controls as necessary for using the brakes.

In flight when practicing solo I would switch seats for the airborne maneuvers. Didn't do any solo landings from the right seat w/o brakes.....

[RobertGary1]

I did my CFI, CFII in my Mooney. The power on 180 approach might be a bit more difficult in a Mooney but if you're flying the plane often its going to be the easiest for you. I'm kind of glad I already have all the ratings the FAA can ever ask me to do some of those maneuvers for

 

-Robert

[HXG]

The oral (teaching) portion of the CFI exam is the more challenging portion. Any plane you ‘re comfortable in flying commercial maneuvers (right seat) is fine. 

[skydvrboy]

2 hours ago, Immelman said:

Didn't do any solo landings from the right seat w/o brakes..... 

We have a saying here "If the brakes don't stop you, something else will!"

[RobertGary1]

37 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

We have a saying here "If the brakes don't stop you, something else will!"

I just did a flight review for a Mooney owner and he used the parking brake to bring the plane to a stop. I'd never seen that but he said he was having trouble with his tow brakes being soft. I had him pull the plane into a 15 degree pitch up and pump them. That seemed to have fixed his issue but that was the first time I realized you could actually stop the plane with the parking brake.

-Robert

[FFpilotChris]

4 hours ago, bradp said:

Do folks who have done this type of training in a Mooney have the right set of brake pedals mod?

 

I have been bringing a safety pilot with me to be my "brakeman"

 

I am just going to practice more until I have the landings down perfect.

[RobertGary1]

Make sure if you put a non-CFI in the left seat to be your brakes you inform your insurance underwriter. Absent other information they often assume the left seat is PIC and if he doesn't meet the open pilot there is no coverage. My broker had me send an email to my underwriter putting them on notice I'd be PIC from the right seat working on my initial CFI.

If you don't, in the end you may still win your case but who wants to have a big fight if you don't have to?

-Robert

[toto]

3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Make sure if you put a non-CFI in the left seat to be your brakes you inform your insurance underwriter. Absent other information they often assume the left seat is PIC and if he doesn't meet the open pilot there is no coverage. My broker had me send an email to my underwriter putting them on notice I'd be PIC from the right seat working on my initial CFI.

If you don't, in the end you may still win your case but who wants to have a big fight if you don't have to?

-Robert

That's an interesting thought that never occurred to me. I assume the scenario is one where the occupants are unable to provide statements after the accident?

I frequently fly from the right seat with a passenger in the left seat who's doing nothing at all. I don't do this in the Mooney because it freaks me out to trust the brakes to someone else, but it's common for me to do it in the Piper. I wonder how often an insurance company raises this as an issue. 

[Tcraft938]

Sometimes doing your checkride in a plane that the DPE is not as experienced with either can be of help.  If they are not as familiar as they are with say the C172, they will tailor the ride to the situation.  I did my CFI checkride in a big ole Piper Lance and I feel he widened some margins in some areas and narrowed in others, adjusting for the plane.  He admitted up front he was appropriately rated for the plane, but had no significant time in type especially recently.  So if you feel competent and more comfortable in your Mooney you may want to go for it.  There's a good chance you will be more comfortable and competent than the DPE.  Go in a C172 and they may feel cocky and like they're going to show you something.  Just a thought.

 

[ragedracer1977]

18 minutes ago, toto said:

I wonder how often an insurance company raises this as an issue. 

Somewhere between never and never. 

[carusoam]

4 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

but that was the first time I realized you could actually stop the plane with the parking brake.

-Robert

Wait a minute...

The Mooney parking brake is a valve that holds pressure or doesn’t hold pressure...

1) the pressure comes from the brake pedals/ master cylinders...

2) apply the brakes to build pressure.

3) hold the pressure using the parking brake valve.

4) Following the logic exactly as presented above by RG... would leave my Mooney going down the runway unexpectedly quickly... 

RG, I must be mis-understanding something... (happens Often...). What did I miss?

 

Sounds like using a Mooney to develop and demonstrate CFI skills... is similar to learning how to fly in a Mooney.   An extra level of challenge... but I’m sure it can be done...  you will really know your Mooney when you are done...

The FAA has set up the challenges...

Airplane builders responded to those challenges by building trainers...

Experienced CFIs can really demonstrate impressive numbers using those trainers...

This was my experience when a CFI demonstrated hands-off steep turns.  With the proper power and trim, the plane flew 360s like an AP was holding attitude and altitude... a C152...

 

Like any other check ride... your response to all the variations (real and/or discussed)  is what is going to count...

 

Make it happen!  Then supply the pics... 

 

Are you planning to be a CFI to train people to fly?  Or is this a good step to pick up along the way to a distant career further up the aviation ladder?

Best regards,

-a-

[RobertGary1]

59 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Somewhere between never and never. 

No in fact my agent has dealt with several times. After an accident the insurance co will list the left seat as pic and then tell you to prove to them otherwise. That’s why he does this. 

-Robert 

[RobertGary1]

53 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Wait a minute...

The Mooney parking brake is a valve that holds pressure or doesn’t hold pressure...

1) the pressure comes from the brake pedals/ master cylinders...

2) apply the brakes to build pressure.

3) hold the pressure using the parking brake valve.

4) Following the logic exactly as presented above by RG... would leave my Mooney going down the runway unexpectedly quickly... 

RG, I must be mis-understanding something... (happens Often...). What did I miss?

 

 

I suspect what he was doing was pressing the tow brakes for the minimal braking he could get, the pull the parking brake, then release the tow, then press the tow again and pull the parking brake. The issue was air in the master cylinder. This guy is an IA. I was surprised at how well it slowed us. 

After we did the pull up and pump he didn’t seem to need to do this again  He seemed to think we’d fixed it  

-Robert 

[carusoam]

Thanks Robert.

My misunderstanding... it sounded (to me) like pulling the valve caused the plane to slow...  like an automotive parking brake... 

Best regards,

-a-

[ragedracer1977]

36 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

No in fact my agent has dealt with several times. After an accident the insurance co will list the left seat as pic and then tell you to prove to them otherwise. That’s why he does this. 

-Robert 

Sounds like an OWT to me.  I read my policy.  Doesn’t make any mention of where I should sit, nor is there any legal guidance that says left seat is PIC. 

[RobertGary1]

1 minute ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Sounds like an OWT to me.  I read my policy.  Doesn’t make any mention of where I should sit, nor is there any legal guidance that says left seat is PIC. 

Sure. Like I said in the end you’ll probably eventually win your argument it just takes some time and effort. The burden is on you to prove the left seat wasn’t flying.

 

-Robert