1/2 Pilot Thread. No IFR and Happy

[flyboy0681]

I've been sitting on the sidelines all day reading these entries and I think each and every single one has a valid point.

I've started my IR training because I fall into the category of not being able to get out due to low overcast that typically burns off in the early afternoon and I have had to scrub a lot of trips due to it. I am also one of those that likes to look out the windows.

Like Vasco said, different strokes..

 

 

[John Pleisse]

Quote: vasco

This is a very interesting thread.  i am reminded that at the party to celebrate me pasing the PP check ride, my instructor burst my baloon and said, "...now when you get your IFR ticket, you will become a real pilot....".  Well i proceeded to get my IFR over the next 10 months and i am happy with that decision. 

While i love flying, when i fly, i am going somewhere.  i use my O3 almost exclusively for business.  The O3 provides outstanding utility and would she not get much excercise from me if i could only "go somewhere" on VFR days. 

i think it just depends on your mission.  i know a lot of very happy VFR pilots. Different strokes....

[RJBrown]

For local fun flights, $200 dollar hamburgers and occasional trips with no hard time lines VFR is OK, I guess. There is a place for both VFR and Sport pilots. In fact the biggest difference between the two is the equipment that can be flown. The type of flying is closer between them than between VFR and IFR.

 Weather changes all the time. Forecasts are qualified guesses. There are very benign IFR situations that can trap a VFR pilot for days.

 I got my PPL Oct 14 1992. In the next year I flew over 165 hours as a VFR pilot. I flew all around the southwest. Colorado, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada and California were my usual trips. The MOST VFR friendly section of the country. Most sunshine combined with the least humidity. In that year there were 4 trips that were impacted by the lack of the IFR ticket. The simplest was waiting out the marine layer over Palomar airport (CRQ) A silly little 300 foot thick layer I could almost see through and I was stuck till it lifted.  Then there was the temperature inversion over the Salt Lake Valley. 3 days later a friend that worked for the airlines jump seated out to rescue me. By the time we left it was, you guessed it, VFR all the way. Another trip to SLC and the whole Wasatch front had clouds just over the ridge. Flew south till I passed the clouds crossed over and followed I-15 up to Salt Lake. About 250 miles out of the way to cross 5 miles of clouds. Another weekend trip to Salt Lake with my kids saw them driven home by a cousin while I waited it out for 3 day.

Each of these trips inconvenienced me. From a couple hours in California to a few hundred mile detour to a few days stuck. Each one would have been a non event IFR. 10 minutes actual would have fixed any one.

By the next November I had the IFR ticket. What you learn IFR can Sace your life VFR.

We used to fly from Cenntennial (APA) to Leesburg (LEE) Florida to visit my inlaws. We would always leave early in the morning have breakfast in Little Rock and be down by noon. Flying early helps avoid the afternoon build ups. This particular morning the auto pilot failed over easten Colorado. Severe clear NO MOON. Could not see a horizon, the stars and farm houses looked just alike. The next two hours were the toughest IFR I ever flew and there were no clouds anywhere. This was the type of VFR that killed JFK Jr.

Be Safe Be Qualified. If you travel at all you will wish you had the IFR rating. You are a safer VFR pilot if you are IFR qualified.

Planes are fun. I call mine a toy all the time. With out a IFR you are limited to treating it like a toy. Don't limit your fun. Don't limit your safety. Just DO IT!!

[scottfromiowa]

Hey VFR pilots ever been told to "Just Do It"(get your IFR).  Ever been told you are limiting your fun and your safety(by being only VFR pilot)?  This is the place for YOU!

[gsengle]

Quote: rob

I'm currently a VFR pilot. This hasn't stopped me from making several flights well over 1000nm. I am a real pilot and I fly a real travelling machine. I rarely get in the airplane if not to go on at least a hour long flight. That said, I find that I drive lots of 2-3 hour drives because I am VFR only.

I don't think anyone can argue that a VFR pilot has only a portion of the skill, knowledge, and capabilites of an IFR pilot. I intend to get my IR as soon as time and finances allows. I'm confident that I will come out of that a better, and more capable, real pilot.

[rob]

GSengle,

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. When I say that I don't think you can argue that a VFR pilot has only a portion of the skill of an IFR pilot, it is to mean that there is no counterpoint to that statement. Your post agrees with mine.

[gsengle]

Quote: rob

GSengle,

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. When I say that I don't think you can argue that a VFR pilot has only a portion of the skill of an IFR pilot, it is to mean that there is no counterpoint to that statement. Your post agrees with mine.

[scottfromiowa]

Congrats to all that have achieved your IR.  Whether you stay current or not the additional training is valuable and likely makes you a "safer" pilot...but no guarantee there.  My intention with this link was NOT to have IFR rated pilots expound on the virtues/benefits.  We VFR pilots know there are many.  We get it.  The feedback has really validated how much IFR pilots DO value the training AND accomplishment.  My mission does NOT demand it, but Yes I look forward to installing my MD41 and KI209A and getting additional training in my plane under the hood and with the equipment I plan to install.  Whether VFR or IFR additonal training and practice with an instructor SHOULD help to improve our skill.

[jelswick]

Amen Scott.  I'm thinking of trying to go for my commercial for the same reason whenever I can find the next available AMUs given the recent aircraft upgrades.  What will it give me that I don't have today?  Really nothing measurable.  But, it's as you mentioned more time spent with an instructor learning about more flight regimes and hopefully improving my available skills in my Mooney.  The rating if I go for it will feel good and maybe slightly lower my insurance premium, but the most important thing is just continued learning to add to our bag of tricks and skills to draw from. 

[KLRDMD]

Quote: jelswick

I'm thinking of trying to go for my commercial for the same reason whenever I can find the next available AMUs given the recent aircraft upgrades.  What will it give me that I don't have today?  Really nothing measurable.  But, it's as you mentioned more time spent with an instructor learning about more flight regimes and hopefully improving my available skills in my Mooney.  The rating if I go for it will feel good and maybe slightly lower my insurance premium, but the most important thing is just continued learning to add to our bag of tricks and skills to draw from. 

[jelswick]

Dang Ken!  There went my business case for it! 

[RJBrown]

Quote: scottfromiowa

Hey VFR pilots ever been told to "Just Do It"(get your IFR).  Ever been told you are limiting your fun and your safety(by being only VFR pilot)?  This is the place for YOU!

[scottfromiowa]

Non taken Randy.  My tongue was in my cheek when I started this thread and I couldn't resist.  I agree having the right tools is 1/2 to 3/4's of the battle...and the knowledge/currency to use them properly.  Great example!  I have the knuckles of a guy that definitely didn't have the right tools (while under a different hood than foggles). 

[John Pleisse]

Quote: JimR

I grew up in a Mooney flying family.  Soloed at 19 over the summer of my Freshman year in college over 20 years ago and got my private two summers later.  I've owned three airplanes now, have high performance and complex endorsements, and have had the opportunity to receive training that many private pilots probably never get, like aircraft ditching school and basic aerobatic instruction.  Like many of you, I'm an aviation addict through and through.

I've had the opportunity to fly right seat for many hours IFR.  And until maybe five years ago I felt that I would eventually pursue my instrument rating.  Many of the pilots that I was flying with were instrument rated, and that seemed to be a rite of passage that was expected of me.  I bought and studied both the King and the Sporty's IFR courses, and even decided to attend a week long instrument proficiency course at a premier sim school to see if it was for me.  Of course, besides the excellent instruction, all that I came away from the course with was a flight review.  But I did as well on the academics side of things as the other pilots did in the course, and I felt good about my 6 hours of airwork in the simulator.

What I have come to realize, though, just in the last five years or so is that I don't enjoy flying IFR.  I enjoy the precision flying that is required, as I am somewhat of a perfectionist.  But I don't enjoy operating in the system and being told all of the time what to do and where to go.  Yes, I understand that the PIC is in charge, and not the controllers, but it doesn't always feel that way to me when flying IFR.  I enjoy looking out the window and making those decisions on my own, every time.  As one of your signature lines states, I fly because it frees me from the tyrany of petty thoughts.  I love that quote.  I rode motorcycles for the same reason when I was younger before I got my pilots license.

Another factor for me is that I really couldn't afford to own a 201 that is properly equipped for IFR flight.  I would want an autopilot with altitude hold and a proper approach certified GPS, for instance.  Probably 20 grand minimum.  These are my personal IFR equipment minimums, although I know that many do fine with much less.  I could have afforded to equip my old Cherokee 180 this way, but it barely met my mission requirements.  A large percentage of my flying is relatively long distance cross country, and the Cherokee just didn't have the legs for that.  I love my Mooney.  The efficiency that it offers and it's mission capabilities.  I've learned to depart very early in the morning, especially in the summer, to avoid the worst of the weather.  VFR cross country in the Mooney is a wonderful combination for me.  Of course, I don't have anywhere that I have to go in the airplane.  If the weather isn't good, I don't go.  If it's not good when it's time to come home, I stick around for another day.  No big deal when you're flying for fun if you plan ahead for it.

Another factor is that, although I used to fly more, now I'm only flying maybe 60 hours a year.  I think, as many of you have stated, that this just isn't enough to be a safe IFR pilot.  In short I think that flying in IMC is a good way to get you killed if you aren't totally current and proficient. 

So for you guys who can afford it, enjoy it, and need to be there on a schedule, I applaud you for your accomplishment in obtaining your instrument rating.  I in no way feel that competent and perfection seeking non-instrument rated pilots are in any way "half" pilots.  But there is no question that we can not do much with our airplanes that instrument rated pilots can. 

Jim 

 

 

 

 

[KLRDMD]

Quote: JimR

[thinwing]

while I donot agree on all of Jim R ,s conclusions regarding how he would "get out of an inadvertant IMC excursion"if it were to happen,I totally agree on his equipment minimums.I believe he is correct to totally avoid IMC unless his aircraft is equipped with a good 3 axis autopilot including alitude hold.I might make an exception to this if it is only a climb to vfr on top.My feeling is no matter what our training,if we are conducting single pilot ifr without an autopilot,the workload is simply to great to conduct safely.Atp trained airline pilots never fly with less than two pilots to share the workload...I donot believe for a minute I am a better pilot than them.Does that imply that I totally rely on otto at the expense of my hand flying skills...absoultely not...but if I am solid on the guages ,single pilot an the a/p packs up....that is an emergency equipment failure and I am terminating the ifr portion to nearest vfr .As far as Jim r s ditching training...I also know how to water land...however In a Mooney ,I could only doit once!!!LOL...my 2 cents..off of soapbox...sinc kp couch

[danb35]

Quote: thinwing

I believe he is correct to totally avoid IMC unless his aircraft is equipped with a good 3 axis autopilot including alitude hold.

[gsengle]

Quote: danb35

I'm glad I didn't know how reckless I was being to fly in IMC without altitude hold!  I'll admit I'd like to have it (and glideslope coupling as well), but that's going to have to be another airplane--can't justify $20k+ to add it to mine, when that plus the current value of mine gets me well on the way to newer and faster (with the better autopilot).

[jetdriven]

With training and even more so, proficiency and recency, IFR with no autopilot is not such a big deal.  Especially in this plane with its heavy ailerons.  This plane flies like a cabin class twin in cruise.  However, without a standby attitude indicator on a second power source, you are betting your life on a 250$ vacuum pump.  Thats the real hazard here.

[gsengle]

Quote: jetdriven

With training and even more so, proficiency and recency, IFR with no autopilot is not such a big deal.  Especially in this plane with its heavy ailerons.  This plane flies like a cabin class twin in cruise.  However, without a standby attitude indicator on a second power source, you are betting your life on a 250$ vacuum pump.  Thats the real hazard here.

[John Pleisse]

I think the intent of this thread was to create an ad hoc VFR chat room, led by Scott from Iowa.

Before his retirement in 2008, Richard Collins wrote an article for "Flying". While he was thoughtful, even handed and based his analysis on data, he suggested the Mooney type had kind of gone down hill. That Mooney pilots had become more of the less experienced ilk. He also suggested Mooney owners had fallen from grace maintaining their aircraft and pointed to changes in accident data. I read it 3 or 4 years ago and have looked everywhere for it (anyone have it?). It kind of ticked me off.

Point being, if every one of us had an instrument ticket (or trained for one) and worked hard to be proficient, we, as a type, would be the safest in the sky. So why not focus energies in a more constructive way?

[John Pleisse]

Pointing to IFR accidents to suggest one is not safer with the rating is misinformed. Statistically, it is proven to be the opposite. The truth is if you fly VFR most or all of the time with the intrument rating, your chances of an accident go down by 50%. Stunning, irrefutable odds. Flying an airplane is one of the only places on earth, where you...yourself, can mitigate nearly 100% of your risk. Hedge your bets.

[rogerl]

Most of this even handed discussion has been great - it's the kind of personal experience and opinion that makes forums useful and relevant.

One thing that has been a recurring theme (other threads as well) is an air of elitism that is I believe if unhelpful to GA.  Vis a vis: if you're not super-rich with lots of spare time to acquire ratings and/or do it for a living, then you should stay on the ground and only move about the country in the fat belly of a heavily policed flying bus.

For example, another thread's poster noted that (something something, basically commenting on watching nickels when ponying up for maintenance and upgrades) if you can't pay full, unbargained price, you "can't afford it, so shouldn't be an airplane owner".

In this IFR/VFR thread, it was noted that respected authorities are coming up with the attitude that the crowd is "downhill" or otherwise unworthy if they are low time or scarcely certificated.

I take issue with both of these points.  I've flown two types of aircraft.  Trained in T41-C (172 with a 210 horsepower continental), and own/fly a 201.  The 201 is arguably easier to fly than the cessna, certainly when it comes to crosswind landings.  Sure, you have got to watch the speed, etc. etc., but the fact remains that of my 200 hours, 150 of them were in my 201, which I transitioned to with a wet-ink SEL certificate with only the required complex endorsement and insurance-required training.

For this pilot/commentator to assume that the crowd is "downhill" because of low time pilots coming into the fold is pretty hypocritical.  At one point he was a low time pilot - was he unworthy, and if so how come he continued to build hours in that case?  Was it because he had a clunkier aircraft to fly, therefore it is OK to fly low time?  Clearly, from my experience, that has little or no bearing on the ability to handle said aircraft.  A cessna getting broadsided by a 737 causes just as much carnage as a mooney, or a cessna augering into a school kills the same number of bystanders.

Similarly for the cost issue.  If only those flush with cash can fly, then how many GA pilots are going to be in the next crop of pilots?  Who are we going to tell our war stories to?  Is it shameful to try to get the best value for your maintenance dollar?

[sleepingsquirrel]

Hi ya'll,

 I looked at my certificate:

It says:

Sleepingsquirrel

has been found to be properly qualified to exercise the privileges of

Private Pilot

On the reverse :

Private Pilot

Airplane Single Engine Land

If I were to write a novel it would start this way:

 Sleepingsquirrel, a squirrel plagued by a lack of ambition, a squirrel who knew his limitations and enjoyed his limitations to their fullest! In a measurement of accomplishments of all squirrels,  a squirrel secure in the knowledge that he enjoyed his small leaps from branch to branch (rather safe ), and did not see this as a limitation. He watched other squirrels press leaps further and further and wondered , why don't I leap that far? Sleepingsquirrel ponders what makes squirrels leap further and further when everything this squirrel needs is within easy reach. Sleepingsquirrel realizes he is measuring with an internal yard stick , knows where he started and how far he has come. Not all squirrels are flying squirrels does this make them any less a squirrel? Sleepingsquirrel does not subscribe to the notion that one is never finished, a real artist knows when to stop, step back and admire his work .

Until we meet again

Sleepingsquirrel

[John Pleisse]

Quote: JimR

For what it's worth, I didn't cherry pick IFR accidents.  I simply spoke to all of the accidents that I could think of that have been discussed over the past year or so here on this website or on the various Mooney chat lists, including a non-fatal accident by a non-instrument rated student pilot.  But following your post I decided to pull up all of the fatal Mooney accidents for the past year on the NTSB website to see if your claims had merit.  The link to the NTSB's website is below, but you'll have to resubmit the Mooney query.  What you'll find is that with the exception of one mid-air collision involving a Mooney in the UK and a guy with no ratings at all that managed to kill himself here in the States last year in a Mooney, every single fatal Mooney accident in the past year, largely consisting of the accidents that I cited, was operating on an instrument flight plan, presumably by an instrument-rated pilot.  The preliminary reports don't provide pilot rating information.  I stand by my previous assertion that you are doubling down when you file an instrument flight plan, and you better be fully up to the task at hand.   

Jim

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/index.aspx