GFC500 Update

[Baker Avionics]

2 minutes ago, smccray said:

Greg- If an owner installs a yaw damper, is the rudder trim system affected?  I don't know that a yaw damper system is really needed in a long body.

Personally, I don't really think you would need it if you have a Rudder Trim System installed and I would sell and install it, if you really wanted it. However, if you were to ask my opinion, as one of my customers, I would suggest you NOT do it because I agree, you really aren't getting as much as what you are paying for on a long body.  Just my opinion.

[ArtVandelay]

http://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-02291-18_01.pdf
Looks like the long bodies were approved in January.

They haven’t updated their status page:



Tom

[carusoam]

I sense DonK is on the phone with his G contact...   

I’m Looking forward to his next awesome project!

Best regards,

-a-

[Baker Avionics]

32 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

They haven’t updated their status page:



Tom

@ArtVandelay Here you go

Mooney GFC 500 AML Listing.pdf

[ArtVandelay]

What is the current prognostication for approval of the mid-body and short-body models?

I was told they have a company J, so I’m surprised it’s not done yet, the F and G they have already said are planning to a little later.


Tom

[aviatoreb]

25 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I was told they have a company J, so I’m surprised it’s not done yet, the F and G they have already said are planning to a little later.


Tom

Could it be test pilot personal resources?  The same folks who did the long body may well now transition to the mid bodies which may well go faster given their gained airframe specific knowledge?  That would be my guess why they are not done at the same time.

[smccray]

They're working on the mid bodies.  K model flew this morning- see the post above by @81X regarding plans for the mid bodies.

[carqwik]

Ok, so how much is the cost of the GFC-500 parts and labor time required for the M20M?  This would replace the KFC-150 (so include tear out time).  What might be the value of the former King a/p computer and servos? In addition, I'd add two G5 units as well.

[m20kmooney]

15 minutes ago, carqwik said:

Ok, so how much is the cost of the GFC-500 parts and labor time required for the M20M?  This would replace the KFC-150 (so include tear out time).  What might be the value of the former King a/p computer and servos? In addition, I'd add two G5 units as well.

Why would you take out a KFC150 only to turn around and put in a GFC500? It seems the cost/gain ratio is extremely unfavorable! Unless of course there’s something seriously wrong with the KFC150 rendering it unrepairable. I had a similar discussion with Allan of Autopilots Central not too long ago. His advice was keep the KFC150! It’s as solid as they come!

Edited February 19, 2019 by m20kmooney

[donkaye]

7 minutes ago, m20kmooney said:

Why would you take out a KFC150 only to turn around and put in a GFC500? It seems the cost/gain ratio is extremely unfavorable! Unless of course there’s something seriously wrong with the KFC rendering it unrepairable.

I spent over $5,000 a couple of years ago trying to get the Wing Rock in HDG, NAV, and APPR mode removed after installation of the G500.  It still is unsatisfactory in those modes.  I'm not willing to spend any more money on the KFC 150.  While I don't like the fact that an ILS would need to be flown manually should GPS fail, the GFC 500 seems the best REAL solution as of today.

[Steve W]

4 minutes ago, m20kmooney said:

Why would you take out a KFC150 only to turn around and put in a GFC500? It seems the cost/gain ratio is extremely unfavorable! Unless of course there’s something seriously wrong with the KFC rendering it unrepairable.

Well, first off it's a KFC150....

No IAS or VNAV modes, no native GPSS. No VS or Altitude preselect without a preselector which don't seem too common. Stupidly expensive repair prices(you want HOW MUCH for a trim switch?), really expensive integration with modern glass and no G5 type low-end compatible digital AI(yet... only a few short years until the KI-300 has an autopilot adapter) Heavy system, heavy vacuum system.

If it weren't for having to put money to an engine this year I'd have signed up with a shop already to replace mine.

[aviatoreb]

4 minutes ago, Steve W said:

Well, first off it's a KFC150....

No IAS or VNAV modes, no native GPSS. No VS or Altitude preselect without a preselector which don't seem too common. Stupidly expensive repair prices(you want HOW MUCH for a trim switch?), really expensive integration with modern glass and no G5 type low-end compatible digital AI(yet... only a few short years until the KI-300 has an autopilot adapter) Heavy system, heavy vacuum system.

If it weren't for having to put money to an engine this year I'd have signed up with a shop already to replace mine.

I'm sold for the concept of more modern digital avionics, more reliable avionics, and the extra features, especially ESP is a major safety feature, but I am not sold on spending what will likely be >20K maybe inching close to 25k for reasons of it will save me money continuing to maintain my KFC200 in a good working order.  And I say that with the fact that I need to get my KI256 repaired as it broke just this week (but after 1000hrs of good service).  25k pays for a lot of repairs over a long duration of time.  So cost is not a reason to upgrade.  The others reasons are - just my opinion.

[m20kmooney]

14 minutes ago, Steve W said:

Well, first off it's a KFC150....

No IAS or VNAV modes, no native GPSS. No VS or Altitude preselect without a preselector which don't seem too common. Stupidly expensive repair prices(you want HOW MUCH for a trim switch?), really expensive integration with modern glass and no G5 type low-end compatible digital AI(yet... only a few short years until the KI-300 has an autopilot adapter) Heavy system, heavy vacuum system.

If it weren't for having to put money to an engine this year I'd have signed up with a shop already to replace mine.

I look at the cost/gain ratio. Not enough gain relative to cost. The KFC150 is a digital autopilot. The KFC200 is analogue and I could be persuaded to replace it. Maybe. But not the 150.

Edited February 19, 2019 by m20kmooney

[Niko182]

Just now, m20kmooney said:

I look at thd cost/gain ratio. Not enough gain relative to cost.

Just wait for the day you have to overhaul something on your KFC. Then lets see what your opinion is.

[m20kmooney]

1 minute ago, Niko182 said:

Just wait for the day you have to overhaul something on your KFC. Then lets see what your opinion is.

I just had the pitch servo done by autopilots central. Well under $1000.

[carqwik]

Great question.  The issue is that my KI-256 will need an overhaul soon (maybe very soon).  It's VAC driven.  So two major failure points right there.  Unfortunately, I can't install the G5 to drive the KFC-150; I'd have to keep the KI256 and VAC if I want glass AI/HSI.  Also, the KFC150 is now 20 years old with original servos.  Repair is very costly.  BTDT once on the flight computer - and although it still works ok, it doesn't do GPSS and the NAV mode is drifting.

So either I overhaul the KI256, maintain the VAC system, and pray nothing more goes wrong with the KFC150 or bite the bullet and bring my plane much great avionics capabilities that are now modern and fully digital. 

OTOH, the King KI300 could be a solution too...but no ability to drive the A/P yet.  Ugh.

[Niko182]

3 minutes ago, m20kmooney said:

I just had the pitch servo done by autopilots central. Well under $1000.

Ive seen quotes hitting 4k and 5k for servo overhauls. Some people arent as lucky as you.

[jetdriven]

Ive heard the pitch board is 12K.   Its obsolete King stuff, I think the analog KFC-200 is better regarded. Now that King has monopolized and in-housed  the repairs on stuff, its going to get even more expensive to own their stuff.

[aviatoreb]

2 minutes ago, carqwik said:

Great question.  The issue is that my KI-256 will need an overhaul soon (maybe very soon).  It's VAC driven.  So two major failure points right there.  Unfortunately, I can't install the G5 to drive the KFC-150; I'd have to keep the KI256 and VAC if I want glass AI/HSI.  Also, the KFC150 is now 20 years old with original servos.  Repair is very costly.  BTDT once on the flight computer - and although it still works ok, it doesn't do GPSS and the NAV mode is drifting.

So either I overhaul the KI256, maintain the VAC system, and pray nothing more goes wrong with the KFC150 or bite the bullet and bring my plane much great avionics capabilities that are now modern and fully digital. 

 OTOH, the King KI300 could be a solution too...but no ability to drive the A/P yet.  Ugh.

My KI256 just went belly up 2 days ago.  Argh.  But like I say its been going strong for 1000hrs.  If the G5 could drive my KFC200 I would put that in tomorrow, thinking of it as a step moving forward toward the GFC500.  I like the GFC500 - it is a much improved new technology safety feature loaded autopilot.  

If the KI300 could drive my KFC200 I would be tempted as thinking alternatively toward the aerocruze 230 - but watching how just stupid-slow King has been with their vaporware for years and years, I would not invest in buying new King products, especially with parts "promised" to be STC'ed in the future.

[bradp]

I have a single axis IIb with no pitch hold.  It’s does a great job but I can’t justify the 6-8k for a PSS when I have dual G5’s already.  Single axis keeps me paying attention but man I’d be happy with a KFC or KAP.  I’ll be in line once the GFC is approved for the mod bodies.  I even sold the idea to the wife.  She likes the idea of envelope protection.  

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, jetdriven said:

Ive heard the pitch board is 12K.   Its obsolete King stuff, I think the analog KFC-200 is better regarded. Now that King has monopolized and in-housed  the repairs on stuff, its going to get even more expensive to own their stuff.

I thought that autopilot central etc could still do the repairs?  At expensive - but still reasonable(ish) rates.  I thought 18 months ago they threatened to close down all the other repair stations and monopolize the repairs as you said, and dramatically raise prices but backed off that threat.

[aviatoreb]

Just now, bradp said:

I have a single axis IIb with no pitch hold.  It’s does a great job but I can’t justify the 6-8k for a PSS when I ha r dual G5’s already.  Single axis keeps me paying attention but man I’d be happy with a KFC or KAP.  I’ll be in line once the GFC is approved for the mod bodies.  I even sold the idea to the wife.  She likes the idea of envelope protection.  

...I like the idea of envelope protection too.  That one feature alone is a selling point to me, and all the rest of this discussion is just excuses to continue convincing myself.

[jetdriven]

2 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

My KI256 just went belly up 2 days ago.  Argh.  But like I say its been going strong for 1000hrs.  If the G5 could drive my KFC200 I would put that in tomorrow, thinking of it as a step moving forward toward the GFC500.  I like the GFC500 - it is a much improved new technology safety feature loaded autopilot.  

If the KI300 could drive my KFC200 I would be tempted as thinking alternatively toward the aerocruze 230 - but watching how just stupid-slow King has been with their vaporware for years and years, I would not invest in buying new King products, especially with parts "promised" to be STC'ed in the future.

with the obscene cost  of overhauling those things, just buy serviceable used and throw away.

[bradp]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

...I like the idea of envelope protection too.  That one feature alone is a selling point to me, and all the rest of this discussion is just excuses to continue convincing myself.

I’ll even say that the envelope protection aspect offsets the silly GPS required for localizer tracking pock mark as I receive yet another GPS interference testing notam this afternoon...

[toto]

I'm so tired of archaic spinning gyros and PoS circuitry that costs a fortune to keep running.  If my Century 2000 shoots craps any time in the near future, I'm going to hand-fly until there's a GFC500 or an approach-approved TruTrak for the M20.

The thought of throwing money at repairing 1950's technology makes my skin crawl.  Even if the repair is cheaper than installing new, it always feels like kicking the can down the road to the inevitable upgrade.