Aircraft Brokers

[Parker_Woodruff]

Tim Lundquist is the man.  Almost bought a Mooney from  him, a couple months ago.

[thinwing]

Hey remember when plane and pilot had B T as one of their "ask the experts"column.Oh those were the days!!!

[Cruiser]

word of mouth referral is the one and only one true method. While this can still be a weak way to evaluate brokers, satisfied customers willing to say so is going to mean the most to future buyers and sellers. However, every deal is different and what the last customer was happy with the next one may not appreciate as much.

To each his own.

[PTK]

Quote: Cruiser

word of mouth referral is the one and only one true method. While this can still be a weak way to evaluate brokers, satisfied customers willing to say so is going to mean the most to future buyers and sellers. However, every deal is different and what the last customer was happy with the next one may not appreciate as much.

To each his own.

[bd32322]

Quote: co2bruce

I'm sorry to hear all these horror stories. I just purchased a 99 Mooney Eagle from a broker (Premier Aircraft Sales in Ft Lauderdale) and I could not be happier with their performance. I feel they they went out of their way to find me the plane I was looking for (at a very fair price), took me though the pre buy, and even offered to help on the insurance and financing if I needed. I worked with Mike Fabianiac, and I would highly recommend these guys.   

[jetdriven]

Thats odd we bought our 201 for ten grand under market from them in January.  Less than you guys are paying for F models.  We even test flew it on a Sunday and they delivered it 250 NM for free.  All American Aircraft.

Quote: allsmiles

Didn't want to put a name on them but such "self proclaimed Mooney specialists"  are indeed used car/plane salesmen.  AAA is probably the worst!  They manipulate and pump up the market and thus inflate their asking prices.  Buyers and sellers don't need these middlemen.  They are self serving and are not there for neither the buyer nor the seller.  The seller realizes less for their airplane and the buyer pays more than they should! They only confuse the process which in the end costs more for all involved

[jetdriven]

For all you guys suffesting that you use AOPA escrow service, we looked into it. For a 5K deposit the escrow fee was over 1,000$.   Id rather risk losing my deposit than pay some bank 20%. 

 

The same AOPA aircraft financing is just another pig with lipstick courstey of Bank of America.  16% APR for an aircraft.  My Bank of America credit card is cheaper.

[jetdriven]

And don't rely on a prebuy, even a MSC or Maxwell prebuy.  Do the prebuy yourself, spend 3 hours looking the aircraft and logs / records over. Re-read them.  We did this.  Go fly it.  Then i stopped by during the annual to take away the oil filter and a sample. I looked inside the belly on jacks.  The prebuy was to verify what we already knew.  No surprises.  Some people paying 5k for a prebuy 3 and 4 times is really something.  What you see is what you get unless its Bondo on a prop and private sellers do this more than brokers.

[jetdriven]

Quote: allsmiles

Why did you pay the mechanic for a prebuy in advance of the actual inspection?  I didn't think this was SOP (regardless of the broker, I would not pay a mechanic before he actually did the work).

[danb35]

Quote: jetdriven

The same AOPA aircraft financing is just another pig with lipstick courstey of Bank of America.  16% APR for an aircraft.  My Bank of America credit card is cheaper.

[Becca]

Quote: jetdriven

For all you guys suffesting that you use AOPA escrow service, we looked into it. For a 5K deposit the escrow fee was over 1,000$.   Id rather risk losing my deposit than pay some bank 20%. 

 

The same AOPA aircraft financing is just another pig with lipstick courstey of Bank of America.  16% APR for an aircraft.  My Bank of America credit card is cheaper.

[Becca]

Quote: danb35

Interesting--my Mooney is financed with the AOPA/BofA program, and the rate is below 7%.  Have they raised the rates that much in the last 3 years?

[Cris]

I used the escrow/title services available thru AOPA simply because they are a known entity to me. I do not recall the exact cost but it was probably around $2000 including title ins. Of course AOPA makes money so the services are available elsewhere for less but I did not have the experience to determine who might be better. However the recommended company did the title search. provided title insurance, & guaranteed that the paperwork would be filed correctly. The broker, JeffFine of Fine Aircraft would have been happy to handle it all (except the title insurance which was the most expensive) at no charge. This was was part of his value add but I wanted a complely independent source due to the issues I wrote about. It was all handled on the phone at time of closing with a very knowlegeable A/C title person. Once papers were faxed the title company authorized me to hand over the funds to the broker & guaranrteed me clear title & off I flew. It was great for peace of mind. A few weeks later I got the FAA registration etc. Costly maybe but I would not buy a house without title insurance & with scames today who knows. Price is  what you pay & value is what you get. One other point is that in the prebuy the Stec 30 autopilot was not checked in flight only on the ground. Jeff warranteed that it would work properly. It was out of tolerance. I had it fixed &  Jeff paid the bill even though the deal was completly done. A man of his word- Old school. There still are people like that out there.

[Becca]

Quote: Cris

I used the escrow/title services available thru AOPA simply because they are a known entity to me. I do not recall the exact cost but it was probably around $2000 including title ins. Of course AOPA makes money so the services are available elsewhere for less but I did not have the experience to determine who might be better. However the recommended company did the title search. provided title insurance, & guaranteed that the paperwork would be filed correctly. The broker, JeffFine of Fine Aircraft would have been happy to handle it all (except the title insurance which was the most expensive) at no charge. This was was part of his value add but I wanted a complely independent source due to the issues I wrote about. It was all handled on the phone at time of closing with a very knowlegeable A/C title person. Once papers were faxed the title company authorized me to hand over the funds to the broker & guaranrteed me clear title & off I flew. It was great for peace of mind. A few weeks later I got the FAA registration etc. Costly maybe but I would not buy a house without title insurance & with scames today who knows. Price is  what you pay & value is what you get. One other point is that in the prebuy the Stec 30 autopilot was not checked in flight only on the ground. Jeff warranteed that it would work properly. It was out of tolerance. I had it fixed &  Jeff paid the bill even though the deal was completly done. A man of his word- Old school. There still are people like that out there.

[PTK]

Quote: jetdriven

Why did you pay the mechanic for a prebuy in advance of the actual inspection?  I didn't think this was SOP (regardless of the broker, I would not pay a mechanic before he actually did the work).

[PTK]

Quote: Cris

I used the escrow/title services available thru AOPA simply because they are a known entity to me. I do not recall the exact cost but it was probably around $2000 including title ins. Of course AOPA makes money so the services are available elsewhere for less but I did not have the experience to determine who might be better. However the recommended company did the title search. provided title insurance, & guaranteed that the paperwork would be filed correctly. The broker, JeffFine of Fine Aircraft would have been happy to handle it all (except the title insurance which was the most expensive) at no charge. This was was part of his value add but I wanted a complely independent source due to the issues I wrote about. It was all handled on the phone at time of closing with a very knowlegeable A/C title person. Once papers were faxed the title company authorized me to hand over the funds to the broker & guaranrteed me clear title & off I flew. It was great for peace of mind. A few weeks later I got the FAA registration etc. Costly maybe but I would not buy a house without title insurance & with scames today who knows. Price is  what you pay & value is what you get. One other point is that in the prebuy the Stec 30 autopilot was not checked in flight only on the ground. Jeff warranteed that it would work properly. It was out of tolerance. I had it fixed &  Jeff paid the bill even though the deal was completly done. A man of his word- Old school. There still are people like that out there.

[Cris]

Becca- My understanding is that title insurance is based on the A/C value so my cost might have been more or less expensive than some one else's depending on the value of their A/C. The issue I see with paperwork today is that many A/C are titled in Corp. names for taxes, liability etc. The Corp trail can be difficult to track. More to the point is if a lien is placed on the assets of the Corp., the FAA might not be aware untill the new owner has "title" which they could then lose or be faced with heavy legal expenses. The A/C I purchased was in a Corp name. As an aside, I am also wondering if the FAA has all the documentation it needs. Why are they requiring that every A/C in the US be re-registered? Maybe we could get one of the legal folks to comment.

[N9937c]

I probably had the best seller in the world on my last Mooney. The plane was this much, He would take it for prebuy anywhere i wanted and we split the escrow . The plane was a better deal than described.

I got to meet a Wonderful Mooney pilot of many years who was giving up flying. I am sure he misses it!

Thanks Gary!

larry

[carusoam]

When financing an aircraft, you will find that there are few protections for the buyer.  It is neither a house, nor a car.

 

The terms are much tougher, and there is no lemon law.  You must consider protecting yourself when the value of the plane is significant compared to your ability to raise cash reserves.

 

Bank of America is an expert at handling the purchase process.  For your financial protection, this is an excellent way to go.  

 

AAA, also very professional.  Supplies all docs and details as required by B of A.

 

Physical protection comes from an independent PPI.

 

When, you are done, you own what you expected to get. No financial surprises, no insurance surprise, no mis-represented or broken aircraft.  Then refinance at your favorite bank or financial institution.

 

Risk taking is allowed when you have giant cash flow and/or your own A&P license and plenty of free time.

 

All of this protection has negotiable costs.  If you decided to avoid these costs, you must have been comfortable with the risks you were taking.

 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[John Pleisse]

Quote: Cris

I used the escrow/title services available thru AOPA simply because they are a known entity to me. I do not recall the exact cost but it was probably around $2000 including title ins. Of course AOPA makes money so the services are available elsewhere for less but I did not have the experience to determine who might be better.

[bd32322]

I financed through Dorr aviation and got a 6.5% rate - the best I could find. For comparison BoA through AOPA wanted 8.xy% For small amounts its hard to find good interest rates - you have fewer lenders competing. The nice thing about Dorr Aviation was that they had a closing cost of $500 which included escrow, title search, paperwork etc. Also they were local to me in Massachusetts - altho all the correspondence was remote - so your mileage will be the same.

 

I lucked out with the pre-buy. It was already annual time for the aircraft as I was about to buy - so the seller decided to get the annual done by his field mechanic and also allow unfettered access to the MSC technicians while the aircraft was open. So the annual was paid for by the seller - but I paid for an MSC inspection while the aircraft was undergoing the annual (about $700)  - and the seller fixed any minor issues. Considering the aircraft had a 7k annual from Maxwell the previous year - it turned out to have few issues.

 

[Cris]

Quote: Cris

I used the escrow/title services available thru AOPA simply because they are a known entity to me. I do not recall the exact cost but it was probably around $2000 including title ins. Of course AOPA makes money so the services are available elsewhere for less but I did not have the experience to determine who might be better.

Wait a second, if you purchased a Mooney,,,,,title serach, verification, chain of title, the entire FAA file and escrow fees..total, should not have exceeded $500. These services are usually provided by or are a sub-fee of responsible lenders who also wish to verify their vested interest. Like Avemco insurance...this is where AOPA becomes unrealistic.

You are correct except for the Title Insurance which represented the additional extra cost. Like any insurance it protects the buyer. My point is that liens can be placed on individuals and definitely against corporations that typically own the A/C outright. These may not show up in the FAA file at time of purchase. Therefore you have no real protection against such liens without title insurance except thru the legal system ie costly. In the past I never thought much about it but today is a differant story.

[Becca]

Quote: allsmiles

Let's be logical.  You buy an airplane for say 100K or so wouldn't you pay a couple thousand dollars to an escrow agent to do all the leg work properly so you are protected?  Seems a no brainer right??

[John Pleisse]

Quote: Cris

Wait a second, if you purchased a Mooney,,,,,title serach, verification, chain of title, the entire FAA file and escrow fees..total, should not have exceeded $500. These services are usually provided by or are a sub-fee of responsible lenders who also wish to verify their vested interest. Like Avemco insurance...this is where AOPA becomes unrealistic.

You are correct except for the Title Insurance which represented the additional extra cost. Like any insurance it protects the buyer. My point is that liens can be placed on individuals and definitely against corporations that typically own the A/C outright. These may not show up in the FAA file at time of purchase. Therefore you have no real protection against such liens without title insurance except thru the legal system ie costly. In the past I never thought much about it but today is a differant story.

[Cris]

No- Just a 330 Hr Eagle with the 310 HP STC but I do think the title insurance rates are higher than what you would expect to pay for a condo or some other piece of real estate. However I am curious as to weather or not the lending institution would indemnify one if a title issue came up especially if you stopped paying on the note?