Oil Change, what are you using

[Cyril Gibb]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

Any thoughts on why I'm so misguided?

You need to use AD (ashless dispersant) oil in our engines.  Ashless to prevent the buildup of metallic compounds found in auto oil and dispersant to keep the blowby lead in solution and not depositing and fouling the oil galleries.  You also need specific anti-scuff additives such as the Lycoming stuff (also included in some aviation oils) or Camguard.

Synthetic automotive engine oil would kill your engine pretty quickly.

I use Phillips 20W-50 and Camguard, but I doubt any approved oil is any better than any other.

[jetdriven]

The Lycoming scuff additive (Triphenyl phosphate)  is only required for the -AD series engines. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by jetdriven

[Guest]

AD80-04-03R2 and Lycoming SB446E call for filter contents inspection and adding Lycoming LW16702 additive at every oil change but only for O-320 H series and O-360 E series engines, also know as the "76 series" engines.

Clarence

[Bob_Belville]

CB admission, I have about a half a case of Phillips 20W-50 and AeroShell W100 straight mineral oil (break in oil). When I think about it I'll use one of those quarts when I add oil, just one per oil change. I'm assured all oils approved for a given engine can be safely mixed. 

[Cyril Gibb]

O.K. @jetdriven and @m20doc, I stand corrected about the applicability.  I'm always learning.

From the Lycoming Mandatory SB:

Laboratory tests indicate that occasionally when the engine is first started, for a very brief interval there is

insufficient residual oil between the rubbing parts which affects the service life of components. Lycoming

has evaluated an agent which, when added to the normal oil supply, deters scuffing under these conditions.

New question: why ? sounds like it would apply to any engine. Do those specific engines have different metallurgy? higher valve string pressures? more extreme cam ramps? Different follower design? I thought that anti-scuff was a good idea... is there any downside to using that additive (or equivalent)?

Edit: I see that Lycoming SI 1409C recommends antiscuff for all Lycoming engines except the friction clutch guys....

[Guest]

All engines can benefit from some anti scuff agent. From Spruce in Canadian dollars:

LW16702 $50.60,

Cam Guard $29.50

Av Blend $18.60

Some oils have the additive pre blended, but not in the required quantity, I posted the MSDS some time ago to show that Phillips Victory 100 has the most additive at the lowest price.

Clarence

[jetdriven]

The 76 series Lycoming engines have a barrel shaped lifter which is about a third smaller diameter than the face of the mushroom lifter. That translates to higher loading of the lifter and cam interface. When the engine was released it had a terrible fit of spalling and shortened service life so the additive plus some tweaked designes seemed to cure the issue. 

I asked Ed Kollin about using Camguard with the W100+ oil and IIrC he didn't like that. I forget why but I think It was that TPP degrades to acid in the presence of H2O and attacks metal parts. 

Edited September 24, 2017 by jetdriven

[Andy95W]

On 9/23/2017 at 7:03 AM, M20Doc said:

W-80 in winter, W-100 in summer, both with Av Blend changed 25-30 hours.

Clarence

I'm with Clarence on AvBlend.  Aviation Consumer tested it and it did well.  Plus they have some evidence it helps reduce valve sticking.

Now stay tuned for a couple of people to say it is 1.) snake oil and 2.) only mineral spirits.

[Skates97]

On 9/23/2017 at 4:03 AM, M20Doc said:

W-80 in winter, W-100 in summer, both with Av Blend changed 25-30 hours.

Clarence

What W-80 are you using? I have been using the Phillips Victory 100W here in Southern California but am considering putting in the Phillips X/C 20W50 at my next oil change in a couple weeks as we make frequent trips to UT and winter is approaching.

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

I'm with Clarence on AvBlend.  Aviation Consumer tested it and it did well.  Plus they have some evidence it helps reduce valve sticking.

Now stay tuned for a couple of people to say it is 1.) snake oil and 2.) only mineral spirits.

I'm not saying it, Avblends own MSDS says it's >99% mineral oil. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Skates97 said:

What W-80 are you using? I have been using the Phillips Victory 100W here in Southern California but am considering putting in the Phillips X/C 20W50 at my next oil change in a couple weeks as we make frequent trips to UT and winter is approaching.

As Phillips doesn't make a W80 I use Aeroshell W80. My planes live in a heated hangar hangar so a multi grade isn't really required.

Clarence

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

I'm with Clarence on AvBlend.  Aviation Consumer tested it and it did well.  Plus they have some evidence it helps reduce valve sticking.

Now stay tuned for a couple of people to say it is 1.) snake oil and 2.) only mineral spirits.

A fellow who ran a pair of 720's for more than 8000 hours put me onto AVBlend which he said helped with valve issues.  

As with all things it is debatable, right up there with flaps on take off, LoP, Garmin vs the rest, Touch and go landing why Pipers are better than Mooneys etc. which we know is because Pipers are simple and Mooneys are hot rods which mere mortals could never master.

Clarence

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

What W-80 are you using? I have been using the Phillips Victory 100W here in Southern California but am considering putting in the Phillips X/C 20W50 at my next oil change in a couple weeks as we make frequent trips to UT and winter is approaching.

I'm using the Philips XC 20w50 and am very happy with it.

[Bartman]

I formerly used Aeroshell 15W-50 for about 9 years because that is what my former shop recommended.  However, after looking at several of the "Which Oil" threads on Mooneyspace and reading Mike Busch articles I decided to rethink that.  I also noted that before I bought the plane it lived in the South and log books showed consistent Aeroshell W100 Plus.  This past spring I went with Aeroshell W100 Plus and a few other engine management changes in attempt to decrease oil consumption/leaking.  It did make a modest difference, probably more due to decreased RPM in cruise than the oil itself.

For my next oil change I'll go with the 15W-50 to carry me from November thru February, then back to the W100 Plus.  

I fly enough that I don't worry about the Camguard and like products.

[steingar]

So I just came back from my oil change. Took about 40 minutes to uncowl the aircraft. Took about 20 for the oil to drain.  The rest of my day was spent trying to remove the /&&@$/$&?!:!!! Oil filter!  It's still there too, waiting for me to dream up even more violent approaches to removing it.

i think one night this week I'm going to pound a chisel into the thing.  That should move it.  Odin knows nothing else has.  And I still don't remember what I'm putting in it. I know what I got our.  It's black.

[Bob_Belville]

1 minute ago, steingar said:

So I just came back from my oil change. Took about 40 minutes to uncowl the aircraft. Took about 20 for the oil to drain.  The rest of my day was spent trying to remove the /&&@$/$&?!:!!! Oil filter!  It's still there too, waiting for me to dream up even more violent approaches to removing it.

i think one night this week I'm going to pound a chisel into the thing.  That should move it.  Odin knows nothing else has.  And I still don't remember what I'm putting in it. I know what I got our.  It's black.

 

Been there, tried lots of things. A HD truck filter wrench and a breaker bar is foolproof for me. And here's a methods trick, don't try to snap it loose, that works with some things but not a stubborn jar lid or an oil filter. Hold strong and steady pressure for 30 seconds or more and it is apt to release.

[RLCarter]

16 minutes ago, steingar said:

The rest of my day was spent trying to remove the /&&@$/$&?!:!!! Oil filter!  It's still there too, waiting for me to dream up even more violent approaches to removing it.

Is it always a fighting match to remove?

[ArtVandelay]

Do not all filters have the 1" nut on the end so you can put a wrench on it?

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Do not all filters have the 1" nut on the end so you can put a wrench on it?

Yes they do, however they are made of pressed steel and will round out if you use a 12 point wrench or pull to quickly.  Slow steady pressure usually wins the day.

Clarence

[PTK]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

A fellow who ran a pair of 720's for more than 8000 hours put me onto AVBlend which he said helped with valve issues.  

As with all things it is debatable, right up there with flaps on take off, LoP, Garmin vs the rest, Touch and go landing why Pipers are better than Mooneys etc. which we know is because Pipers are simple and Mooneys are hot rods which mere mortals could never master.

Clarence

The issue I have with Avblend is not if it works as advertised or not. I don’t know if it soaks into metal. I assume if its applied on a bear piece of metal it will adsorb into the surface imperfections, no doubt.  And so will corn oil.

The problem I have is this: my Lycoming has an 8 qt oil capacity which is 7571 ml. One Avblend bottle is 354 ml. This yields a 4.6% solution by volume in my engine. How can this trace amount possibly find its way through the oily surfaces to the metal underneath and soak in?

(Hint: It doesn't!)

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, PTK said:

The issue I have with Avblend is not if it works as advertised or not. I don’t know if it soaks into metal. I assume if its applied on a bear piece of metal it will adsorb into the surface imperfections, no doubt.  And so will corn oil.

The problem I have is this: my Lycoming has an 8 qt oil capacity which is 7571 ml. One Avblend bottle is 354 ml. This yields a 4.6% solution by volume in my engine. How can this trace amount possibly find its way through the oily surfaces to the metal underneath and soak in?

(Hint: It doesn't!)

This is based on your experience?  

[PTK]

50 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

This is based on your experience?  

I am asking a legitimate question. 

I simply have not seen any testing or data that shows it works as advertised IN SITU  inside the engine. Does such data exist? If it does I’d love to read it.

In order for it to work as they say, i.e. soak into the metal, this minuscule amount (4.6% avblend by volume in 8 qts of oil) has to first find its way through 95.4% by volume, a ton of oil in comparison, and come in close proximity to the metal surfaces. Then it has to overcome and displace the oil on the metal surfaces in order to soak into the metal. Is there data?

 

[Sabremech]

10 minutes ago, PTK said:

No. I simply have not seen any testing or data that shows it works as advertised IN the engine. Does such data exist? If it does I’d love to read it. In order for it to work as they say, i.e. soak into the metal, this minuscule amount has to first displace the oil on the metal surfaces. Is there data?

My thoughts exactly with regards to Camguard. 

[Andy95W]

15 minutes ago, PTK said:

No. I simply have not seen any testing or data that shows it works as advertised IN the engine. Does such data exist? If it does I’d love to read it. In order for it to work as they say, i.e. soak into the metal, this minuscule amount has to first displace the oil on the metal surfaces. Is there data?

The Aviation Consumer did some tests that showed it helped resist corrosion just like Camguard and the Lycoming additive. More than that- I don't have any data.  

There is some evidence (possibly anecdotal) that AvBlend helps prevent valve sticking in Lycoming engines. I have no data to prove that, but do you know of any oil or additive that even comes close to that claim?  I don't. 

And for Byron- yes I understand it is 99% mineral spirits. But as I've said in the past- the other 1% must pack a helluva punch!

 

[Guest]

Per the various Lycoming S/B's and S/I's, 446E, 471B and 1409C which all call for use of LW16702 additive the ratios are one 6 ounce bottle per 8 quart (256 ounce) sump unless of course it is blended into the oil being used.  

Lycoming mandatory ratio is 2.34%

Cam Guard suggested ration is 5% 

Av Blend suggested ratio is 4.68% 

Aeroshell 15W50, W80 plus and W100 plus contain 0.1-0.9% Triphenyl phosphate, this seems to be a bit short of the Lycoming requirement and more importantly FAA AD 80-04-03R2.

Phillips Victory 100AW oil contains 1.9% Triphenyl phosphate, also short of the requirement but closer to both the AD and Lycoming requirements.

All of this is mute as no additive is required for the Lycoming engines installed in any Mooney.

My suggestion is that you use which ever oil and/ or additive that makes you happy.  For me I'll follow the guidance of a guy who put more than 8000 hours on a pair of IO-720's, as my engine is worth what most J model Mooneys are worth.

Clarence