Do you really need a #2 NAV/COM?

[Firebird2xc]

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but per the FARs if you have an approved GPS as a primary NAV/COM you don't really need a secondary navigation data source or a second radio.  Do I have this correct?

Other than getting the ATIS or a total #1 Com failure, it's not really essential?

Technically you could get by with a walkie in the event of a panel failure?    

I am pricing out potential panel retrofits and suddenly find myself wondering...

Anybody ever had a Garmin or Avidyne fail outright?

[N6758N]

If you plan on flying IFR a lot, i think it is a necessity. The ability to flip flop between radios and have your destination ATIS and tower set on #2. The failure rate is very low, however I would not want to take the chance. The cost of keeping a 2nd nav com that is already in your panel is relatively low compared to adding a new one. 

[gsengle]

Just go with a basic slim line vor/ils nav com for #2


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[Oldguy]

25 minutes ago, N6758N said:

If you plan on flying IFR a lot, i think it is a necessity. The ability to flip flop between radios and have your destination ATIS and tower set on #2. The failure rate is very low, however I would not want to take the chance. The cost of keeping a 2nd nav com that is already in your panel is relatively low compared to adding a new one. 

I will second Terry on this. Getting permission from ATC to go off frequency to catch ATIS at your destination can be a bit of a pain when you are getting busy setting up for an approach in IMC. But never having done it, I must confess to this opinion being just speculation.

Keeping a second NAV/COM may not be required, but when buying a plane I, and probably a few others, would look at a plane without one as needing an immediate upgrade or would just pass it by.

[KSMooniac]

I think at least a second COM is functionally required for IFR use, and I'd be uncomfortable without at least a second NAV, despite the plethora of portables many of us already use.

My plane came with a 530/430 combo that I love, but think it might be overkill. I'm considering trading the 430W off for a modern nav/com if/when I do my panel makeover. My 430 mainly displays extra data fields, which I can easily show on my iPad now. Not to mention paying for an extra database, which I abhor.

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[RLCarter]

Minimum for IFR is 1 comm and 1 nav VOR/LOC but you would be very limited on what Approaches you could do. Dual Comm's and Nav's with Flip-Flops sure makes it a lot easier. Leagal isn't always SAFE

Edited August 24, 2017 by RLCarter

[Firebird2xc]

Okay, so the gist of it is that it's legal depending on the means of navigation just not entirely smart.

Thank you, all.  

[midlifeflyer]

Kind of depends on what you mean by 

2 hours ago, Firebird2xc said:

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but per the FARs if you have an approved GPS as a primary NAV/COM you don't really need a secondary navigation data source or a second radio.  Do I have this correct?

Other than getting the ATIS or a total #1 Com failure, it's not really essential?

Technically you could get by with a walkie in the event of a panel failure?    

I am pricing out potential panel retrofits and suddenly find myself wondering...

Anybody ever had a Garmin or Avidyne fail outright?

Kid of depends what you mean. Your typical GPS with VLOC capability has a secondary navigation data source - the VOR and LOC. Assuming that's the case, if are talking about having a completely separate Nav and comm radio, no FAR I know of but, as you said, it comes down to a matter of convenience. That said, there are a few procedures here and there that require a second Nav, typically ILS approaches with step-downs based on a VOR's DME.

[ArtVandelay]

Forget the 2nd com, but nav?, you gotta have a 2nd nav instrument if IFR.

[neilpilot]

I think that the smart thing is to have 3 coms if flying IFR.  Com #1 & #2 in the panel.  Com #3 is portable, battery powered, with a headset adapter and an outside antennae jack.  That's on my MEL for IFR operations.

[Mooneymite]

This was covered in a thread some time ago, but I had a Garmin WAAS antenna failure that not only rendered my 430 "lost", but prevented me from using even my hand-held back-up GPS.  The failure mode is well known to Garmin, but for obvious reasons (I suspect they don't want an AD), Garmin doesn't publicize it.

So...if you only have a single Garmin for GPS nav, there is a single point failure mode.

Here's the thread:

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/11114-garmin-430w-gps-antenna-problem/

 

[neilpilot]

There are several other single point failure modes.  A total electrical failure comes to mind.

[Mooneymite]

14 minutes ago, neilpilot said:

There are several other single point failure modes.  A total electrical failure comes to mind.

Yes, but in the case of a total electrical failure, the 430 would be rendered "off" and your hand-held GPS would work again!  

[Andy95W]

I wouldn't fly IFR without a #2 COM.  But NAV? Totally fine with that, since I'm not busting around in low IFR anyway unless I'm at work.  If it came down to losing #1 NAV, I'd declare an emergency using my #2 COM and use my portable GPS.

It's basic CRM to me- with a second COM radio, you can ask for help from a wide range of people.  Without it, you're on your own.  I'd rather ask for radar vectors to VFR conditions than wander around NORDO trying to track a VOR course to unknown weather conditions.

[Cooperd0g]

If your primary is a Garmin or other combo GPS/Nav/Comm then I think a second Comm is a good idea. A second Nav/Comm is not what I would consider overkill. I definitely think dual GPS/Nav/Comms is wasted money. More people die in pilot error from loss of attitude source in IFR then from loss of navigation capability. 

Your best IFR upgrade is training and learning how to fly partial panel. You lose navigation, you just call ATC for help. You lose comm you follow protocol of AVEF and MEA and squawk 7600. You lose both, squawk 7700 and do your best. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Cooperd0g

[gsxrpilot]

I was thinking this very same way, that a 2nd comm might not be even all that useful. I've been doing quite a bit of IFR flying lately and have been evaluating what it's like not to have a second comm.

Everyone's seen my panel and you'll know that I have an IFD540 as my primary GPS/Nav/Comm/Transponder/ADSB/etc. I did install a KX165 just to have a second nav/comm. I also installed the PMA450a audio panel. With the PMA450a, I never need to use the second comm. It supports monitoring standby frequencies. And the IFD540 supports multiple standby freq's. So I can get ATIS without ever leaving ATC and all with a single Comm. 

I've logged about 30 hours of IFR in the last two months all without using the KX165 at all.  But to be fair, its the IFD540 and PMA450a combo that make that easy.

[milotron]

15 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I also installed the PMA450a audio panel. With the PMA450a, I never need to use the second comm. It supports monitoring standby frequencies. And the IFD540 supports multiple standby freq's.

So the IFD allows you to listen to the standby freqs, or does the PMA facilitate this?  That is a very useful feature that I wasn't aware of. How many can it monitor simultaneously?

 

iain

[Firebird2xc]

 

@gsxrpilot

This is interesting.  If the aiplane I buy has a 530 or 430, the plug and play swap to an Avidyne is up for consideration.

[Ron McBride]

I have a 430W as primary, but my KX155 gets used for Attis etc, and I use the navy as a back up, I still cross check enroute, the same as when we did for navigation.  And yes, with the 430W, 496 and iPad, this is not needed, just over doing it.

Ron

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, milotron said:

So the IFD allows you to listen to the standby freqs, or does the PMA facilitate this?  That is a very useful feature that I wasn't aware of. How many can it monitor simultaneously?

The IFD supports sending the first standby freq to the audio panel. The audio panel just has to have a switched option to select it. The PMA and some other newer audio panels support this. If your audio panel has options for components such as ADF for some other audio source that you're not using, it can be wired for the standby freq from the IFD.

6 minutes ago, Firebird2xc said:

This is interesting.  If the aiplane I buy has a 530 or 430, the plug and play swap to an Avidyne is up for consideration.

I certainly like my Avidyne IFD 540 and the PMA 450a audio panel. 

[Firebird2xc]

3 hours ago, daver328 said:

Be advised: The GPSs no ... BUT The antennas have had issues .... 

I'm with the others in the two radios camp. 

Are there specific antenna part number or serial numbers to look for?

I'm inclined to build a panel like gsxrpilot with the Avidyne and audio panel.  I carry a Walkie as an emergency comm anyways and have a Stratus 2 and iPad for charts and ADS-B...  I still kinda wonder if that would be enough.  

[Firebird2xc]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

The IFD supports sending the first standby freq to the audio panel. The audio panel just has to have a switched option to select it. The PMA and some other newer audio panels support this. If your audio panel has options for components such as ADF for some other audio source that you're not using, it can be wired for the standby freq from the IFD.

I certainly like my Avidyne IFD 540 and the PMA 450a audio panel. 

Can you drop me a link to your panel shot?  I don't think I've seen it, personally.

[takair]

You need at least VOR to back up the GPS.  You don't require a second com.  I have had two failures of my GNS-430 that required me to switch to my old Narco.  Ironically the Narco has never failed in over 20 years.  As others indicate, for real IFR have two radios.

[Firebird2xc]

Just now, daver328 said:

Not sure if Garmin ever released the number range ... ? Some were over tightened (they think) at installation ... cracked and when it got wet inside  ... happened to a few Mooney owners on this forum. Not sure what the thread was titled?

 

Something to look for in pre-buy, then.

[gsxrpilot]

I was building the best panel I could but without spending for anything I didn't need or wouldn't benefit from. So even though the KX165 looks a bit out of place, I just wouldn't spend anything on a second nav/com as I really didn't think I'd ever use it. And the truth is, in 30 hours of IFR, several IMC approaches in very low conditions, and I've never needed the second nav/comm.  It's fine to have it, and I've got nothing against having the second nav/comm, but as I never use it, I'm glad I didn't spend anything on it.

I'm confident that in an emergency situation my handheld radio, my iPad, iPhone, stopwatch, compass, etc. will get me back on the ground safely.