Trio Autopilot- Please respond if you want one

[merrja]

All,

I received the email below about the Trio Autopilot for Mooneys.   I have signed up and here is a link to an AOPA article about them (Pre 172 approval) https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/november/28/group-works-to-stc-new-lower-cost-autopilot

If you're interested please contact Paul.  Looks like the kit will be less than $3500 including servos. 

http://www.trioavionics.com/ProPilotBrochure.pdf

 

Mooney drivers !

 

We had a great meeting last week with the FAA to kick off the Trio Pro Pilot autopilot STC approval project.

 

The STC Group, is holding an engineering meeting next week to decide who gets the resources for the next couple of A/P install kit design projects.

 

I’ve got three (3) of you on my Firm commit list. I need at least 25 to 30 of you on the Firm list in order to throw engineering team members at your Mooneys.

 

It’s time to step up to the plate and get on the list everyone.

 

I’ve got Joel K., Jason K, and Ray Slocum on the Firm list.

 

Ping me before next Tuesday, get on your type group lists, and get them to belly up to the bar.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Paul C. Odum

The STC Group, LLC

Camarillo Airport, California (KCMA)

Mobile +1 805 304 5246

paul.odum@thestcgroupllc.com

“Fusing Tech with Tradition”

[jamesm]

Fyi  I  just posted the same email in the "Avionics/Panel Discussion" of Mooney Space ....   3 down 27 more to go.

 

James '67C

[Yetti]

Sorry to be lazy but Paul would get it.

Can you do a feature list comparison to TruTrack AP?

[isaacpr7]

29 minutes ago, jamesm said:

Fyi  I  just posted the same email in the "Avionics/Panel Discussion" of Mooney Space ....   3 down 27 more to go.

 

James '67C

I'm down like four flat tires Unless a better option becomes available before this whole thing kicks off. Any thoughts from my fellow Mooniacs?

[LevelWing]

It looks like this is now posted in General Mooney Talk, here and Avionics/Panel discussion. Maybe we can get them merged?

[jamesm]

Other than  It appears Trio   uses   different servo's motors.  I am not the difference between Trio and  Tru-Trak   both seem to have been in business for about the same amount time. not sure if Tru-Trak  has L/V nav capability or envelope protection However Tru-Trak mention "A big announcement' in Video at Sun -N-Fun for Oshkosh not sure what that entails more models approve for  or more autopilot capability or maybe both.  

so below is  Tru-trak  Vision not sure how many features will be available for certified aircraft

Vizion Features:

Available in 2.25” cut-out or Flat Pack

Built-in Ground Track DG
Track Select Mode
GPS Nav Mode
GPS Steering Mode
Altitude Hold
VS Select Mode
Altitude Pre-select
Altitude Select
Vertical GPS Steering Mode
Control Wheel Steering
Pitch Trim Annunciation
Automatic Pitch Trim
Emergency AP Level Mode

Round: 2.5” H x 2.5” W x 5.5” D
Flat Pack: 1.6” H x 4.3” W x 6.1” D

---------------------------------------------------------------

 -------  Below is  Trio's Pro Pilot autopilot  certified aircraft

Horizontal

Track
Course
Intercept

Vertical

Altitude Hold
Climb / Descend
Altitude PreSelect

Safety

Automatic 180 Turn
Altitude Recovery
"G" Force Limiting
Airspeed Limiting
Track Offset
Automatic Servo
     Disconnect

Pitch Auto Trim
Fuel Management
     System

Options

GPSS
GPSV

James

Edited April 18, 2017 by jamesm

[air cooled dad]

I'm on the firm list.  No money deposited. I'm firm that I want an autopilot but both companies will have to battle it out for my money.  Best product at a good price will win.  I like the Trio but TruTrak is a close second.  

Jason

 

[MBDiagMan]

Okay, $3,500 for the goods.  Got it.  How about installation cost?

[aviatoreb]

10 hours ago, jamesm said:

Other than  It appears Trio   uses   different servo's motors.  I am not the difference between Trio and  Tru-Trak   both seem to have been in business for about the same amount time. not sure if Tru-Trak  has L/V nav capability or envelope protection However Tru-Trak mention "A big announcement' in Video at Sun -N-Fun for Oshkosh not sure what that entails more models approve for  or more autopilot capability or maybe both.  

so below is  Tru-trak  Vision not sure how many features will be available for certified aircraft

Vizion Features:

Available in 2.25” cut-out or Flat Pack

Built-in Ground Track DG
Track Select Mode
GPS Nav Mode
GPS Steering Mode
Altitude Hold
VS Select Mode
Altitude Pre-select
Altitude Select
Vertical GPS Steering Mode
Control Wheel Steering
Pitch Trim Annunciation
Automatic Pitch Trim
Emergency AP Level Mode

Round: 2.5” H x 2.5” W x 5.5” D
Flat Pack: 1.6” H x 4.3” W x 6.1” D

---------------------------------------------------------------

 -------  Below is  Trio's Pro Pilot autopilot  certified aircraft

Horizontal

Track
Course
Intercept

Vertical

Altitude Hold
Climb / Descend
Altitude PreSelect

Safety

Automatic 180 Turn
Altitude Recovery
"G" Force Limiting
Airspeed Limiting
Track Offset
Automatic Servo
     Disconnect

Pitch Auto Trim
Fuel Management
     System

Options

GPSS
GPSV

James

Does trio have envelope protection?  Im not finding it now but I thought I saw that earlier.

[N6758N]

The email I got a few weeks ago from Paul stated the Trio Pro A/P cost was $5,000 plus $2,000 for the install kit. So I'm assuming $7,000 for the whole kit plus installation which is probably going to run another $3,000. Can anyone confirm or critique this information? I'm not worried about installation costs as I would be doing the install myself, but $7,000 seems a bit steep for these systems, considering you can get an STEC-30 for around 10k....

[jetdriven]

Now it's nearly the S-Tec price. 

[cnoe]

Why do the (newly reduced) certification costs have to be borne by the first few purchasers? After that it's nothing more than price gouging, and I guarantee the price won't drop. Here's what they SHOULD cost (and this is after A.S. makes a fair profit).

 

It's smarter to sell 1,000 units at $3,250 than 100 at $5,000.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Browncbr1]

Even though I already have an AP, I would replace it with a trio if the price were to stay similar to what they currently sell for ($3k) after certification.    More than doubling the price is nonsense

[cnoe]

Even though I already have an AP, I would replace it with a trio if the price were to stay similar to above after certification.  

Me too. I believe MANY of us would if it was coupled and didn't require a vacuum source.


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[jetdriven]

All this anticipation of non certified avionics making their way into certified aircraft has been disappointing.  Usually they are twice the price and have half the features. Which is only marginally better than the previous options. 

[AndyFromCB]

15 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

All this anticipation of non certified avionics making their way into certified aircraft has been disappointing.  Usually they are twice the price and have half the features. Which is only marginally better than the previous options. 

Except that compare it STEC55X not STEC30 and $7K, it is a third of the price for what is a digital autopilot hopefully much smoother at tracking then STEC can ever be. I've flown behind both STEC30 and STEC55 and they leave a lot to be desired. If it's as good as the KFC150 but considerably more reliable, $7K is a bargain. Only time will tell about reliability. You can spend $7K just to overhaul two STEC or King Servos.

[cnoe]

10 minutes ago, AndyFromCB said:

$7K is a bargain.

It sure doesn't feel like it when the retail price on it is $3,000 (plus install kit) on Aircraft Spruce.

With the new certification rules we shouldn't be paying significantly more than the experimental guys, particularly when the main unit and the servos have already been in production for a while.

Like I said before, it makes more sense to sell 1,000 for $3,250 ($3.25 million in sales) than 100 for $5,000 ($500,000 in sales). Perhaps these small companies aren't well capitalized and simply can't afford to ramp up production?

 

[N6758N]

1 hour ago, AndyFromCB said:

Except that compare it STEC55X not STEC30 and $7K, it is a third of the price for what is a digital autopilot hopefully much smoother at tracking then STEC can ever be. I've flown behind both STEC30 and STEC55 and they leave a lot to be desired. If it's as good as the KFC150 but considerably more reliable, $7K is a bargain. Only time will tell about reliability. You can spend $7K just to overhaul two STEC or King Servos.

Point taken, I would hope this new A/P compares to 55X or a Century 2000 in terms or performance, however if they want to entice enough of us to buy it they need to make the price less than half of those systems in my opinion. I for one am thinking that Garmin will enter the game with their experimental autopilot and get it STC'd it for us certified guys. 

[LevelWing]

Just now, N6758N said:

Point taken, I would hope this new A/P compares to 55X or a Century 2000 in terms or performance, however if they want to entice enough of use to buy it they need to make the price less than half of those systems in my opinion. I for one am thinking that Garmin will enter the game with their experimental autopilot and get it STC'd it for us certified guys. 

I was thinking the same thing. It would compliment the G5 nicely, especially if they priced it right. 

[AndyFromCB]

1 hour ago, N6758N said:

Point taken, I would hope this new A/P compares to 55X or a Century 2000 in terms or performance, however if they want to entice enough of us to buy it they need to make the price less than half of those systems in my opinion. I for one am thinking that Garmin will enter the game with their experimental autopilot and get it STC'd it for us certified guys. 

One can only hope. GFC700 or the G3X are the best autopilots around. My assumption, probably correct, is that the software is identical between the two (why write separate code) and if GFC can drive around medium size jets, it sure can drive around a piston single/twin. GFC is simply amazing. 

[ArtVandelay]

It sure doesn't feel like it when the retail price on it is $3,000 (plus install kit) on Aircraft Spruce.
With the new certification rules we shouldn't be paying significantly more than the experimental guys, particularly when the main unit and the servos have already been in production for a while.
Like I said before, it makes more sense to sell 1,000 for $3,250 ($3.25 million in sales) than 100 for $5,000 ($500,000 in sales). Perhaps these small companies aren't well capitalized and simply can't afford to ramp up production?
 

I thought the servos were different, they had to add a clutch IIRC.

[jetdriven]

3 hours ago, cnoe said:

It sure doesn't feel like it when the retail price on it is $3,000 (plus install kit) on Aircraft Spruce.

With the new certification rules we shouldn't be paying significantly more than the experimental guys, particularly when the main unit and the servos have already been in production for a while.

Like I said before, it makes more sense to sell 1,000 for $3,250 ($3.25 million in sales) than 100 for $5,000 ($500,000 in sales). Perhaps these small companies aren't well capitalized and simply can't afford to ramp up production?

 

If the whole point of non-certified avionics in certified airplanes is to bring costs down, then why are they twice the price of the experimental version?  Why do they de-content them?

I get the Trio is half the price, still, of a STEC55x. But the STEC has a couple decades of proven reliability and support.  Trio is a newcomer to this market and as such, hasnt proven their product is good. Also it bears significantly more risk of orphaned products, which arent worth much at all after that.   We have seen this with the Avidyne DFC90. They really couldnt get a viable product to market, and completely ignored the Mooney airplane.   A half cup of tea for half price is no bargain.

[cnoe]

I thought the servos were different, they had to add a clutch IIRC.

Maybe so; until we see what goes into the certified planes I don't know.

If the servos for certified planes require a clutch that the experimentals don't then we should pay a bit more for the added hardware. No problem there.

It would just be refreshing to see GA become more affordable again. I'll never be able to afford a NEW plane, but I'm hopeful that I can continue to make improvements in my existing one. Still at some point it becomes senseless to keep throwing money at an airframe that will never be worth more than a fraction of the money invested in its upgrades.


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[jamesm]

Correct me if I am wrong .... but isn't the STEC 20 & 30 autopilots a rate based  autopilot?   I  am certain the Airliners and business  jet use an  Attitude based autopilots  which much more common in today's world of autopilots.

 In comparison for Navigation purposes the  LORAN C was  good back in the day and  just like   vacuum gyros  fit their purpose   are  now being replace with glass.   Leave  those outdated  high failure  technology in the past.   So why you would install backward an outdated autopilot  technology (which probably won't be supported in the future) in their airplanes ?  which going to limited too much to upgrade in the future?  Not mention  I  believe an  authorize Dealer  has  to install the STEC  autopilot  which means you going to pay BIG $$$$$ in labor  to have one installed. 

Just my thoughts,

James '67C

[Yetti]

This is my feature comparison between the Tru Track and Trio.

I am trying to figure why the Tru Track only comes with 2 servos.  Seems like you need 3 to be a 3 axis autopilot.

 

It's going to take some work to figure out what these things interface to.  So that work is not done.

From what i have seen the Dynon Skyview is the most integrated from a systems standpoint.  So I am going to focus on what is needed to integrate to that.  

Autopliotcompare.pdf