ADS-B Out/In solutions for WAAS and non-WAAS Mooneys

[231LV]

I checked the forum subjects and was unable to find something recent to this discussion so if I am repeating what has already been discussed, I apologize. The mandate is looming (1/1/2020) and after a recent flying trip down to Baja with some other Mooney owners, the discussion centered around possible solutions and the associated costs. First and foremost, we all concluded that it is NOT likely that the FAA will postpone this requirement so if anyone plans to fly in anything other than uncontrolled airspace, a solution must be in our future plans. Second, we concluded that the shops that do these conversions will likely start booking up  when we are 18 months or so out so action sooner rather than later is probably smart. Third, prices may continue to come down but not significantly more so whats out there is probably what we are looking at for a cost. Fourth, we all now understand that the FAA language is somewhat unclear regarding WAAS or non-WAAS. It appears that the language stops short of mandating WAAS but says that in order to enjoy the full benefits of ADS-B Out/In WAAS capability should be present(we were not sure what that means). So where does this leave us??? Most of the publications have done numerous rundowns of available solutions and associated costs so I won't rehash that here. Suffice it to say that you can spent A LOT or get away with only a couple of AMU's. Personally, I am looking at the NAVWORX ADS600B solution listed at $2020. http://navworx.com/ADS600BDescription.php. The Out portion is solved by an internal WAAS GPS and the "box" utilizes your existing Mode S transponder as a transmitter so no need for a replacement. Of course, there are additional costs such as the antenna and install but the ballpark costs are less than the $5k neighborhood of a year or so ago. This solution also gives you the IN. My panel already has an Aspen 1000 PDF so I'm trying to understand what display options I may get with the NAVWORXs box. Wondering what others are thinking?

[gsengle]

Aspen works really well with the Lynx 9000... need more info about your plane, maybe a photo of the panel

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[carusoam]

Add some info about what your typical mission is... what you like, what you don't like.  Are you a member of the CB club? 

1) The all in one box (WAAS GPS and transponder) really makes sense if you don't have a WAAS receiver already and don't intend to buy one.

2) The Lynx is similar and adds a panel mount display for the weather and traffic. Great if you are short on color displays on your panel. Not really a CB kind of solution...

3) If you have a pair of WAAS receivers already, the all in one box may not add much skill for the money being paid...

What drives your decision on this?

I'm interested as my panel has no WAAS currently.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[carqwik]

NavWorx solution is UAT only.  Turbo M20s need the ES solution to get to FL180 and higher.

[gsengle]

Also if you already have active traffic, makes Lynx really attractive...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tigers2007]

My $0.02 here but if you're willing to spend up to 4-5 AMU's for these hybrid patchwork systems (with installation), then why not consider spending the 1-2 AMU more for the L3 Lynx 9000? Get a full display for Wx and traffic. L3 even offers lesser versions like the NavWorx but even after pricing them out, it came to be the same argument to me - spend the 1-2 AMU more to get the Lynx 9000. I was surprised to find that a local dealer near me charges the same install price for the GTX345 and Lynx 9000; a no-brainer for me. Plus if you ever install an Aspen, the Lynx series automatically adapts without paying a huge software tribute fee to Aspen (unlike Garmin, etc).
I've noticed this a lot with avionics. You seem to end up paying much more if you don't plan out your project for the long run. I was set on the Garmin G5 but after considering installation costs, it is a no-brainer for me to do the Aspen VFR PFD instead. The Aspen VFR is much more scalable (upgrade to Pro whenever...) just like the Lynx 9000 (upgrade to SkyWatch, output traffic/wx to MFD).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[201er]

1 hour ago, carqwik said:

NavWorx solution is UAT only.  Turbo M20s need the ES solution to get to FL180 and higher.

Also for international for us NA guys.

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, 231LV said:

I checked the forum subjects and was unable to find something recent to this discussion so if I am repeating what has already been discussed, I apologize. The mandate is looming (1/1/2020) and after a recent flying trip down to Baja with some other Mooney owners, the discussion centered around possible solutions and the associated costs. First and foremost, we all concluded that it is NOT likely that the FAA will postpone this requirement so if anyone plans to fly in anything other than uncontrolled airspace, a solution must be in our future plans. Second, we concluded that the shops that do these conversions will likely start booking up  when we are 18 months or so out so action sooner rather than later is probably smart. Third, prices may continue to come down but not significantly more so whats out there is probably what we are looking at for a cost. Fourth, we all now understand that the FAA language is somewhat unclear regarding WAAS or non-WAAS. It appears that the language stops short of mandating WAAS but says that in order to enjoy the full benefits of ADS-B Out/In WAAS capability should be present(we were not sure what that means). So where does this leave us??? Most of the publications have done numerous rundowns of available solutions and associated costs so I won't rehash that here. Suffice it to say that you can spent A LOT or get away with only a couple of AMU's. Personally, I am looking at the NAVWORX ADS600B solution listed at $2020. http://navworx.com/ADS600BDescription.php. The Out portion is solved by an internal WAAS GPS and the "box" utilizes your existing Mode S transponder as a transmitter so no need for a replacement. Of course, there are additional costs such as the antenna and install but the ballpark costs are less than the $5k neighborhood of a year or so ago. This solution also gives you the IN. My panel already has an Aspen 1000 PDF so I'm trying to understand what display options I may get with the NAVWORXs box. Wondering what others are thinking?

Welcome to the wacky world of ADS-B. My plane is currently in the shop for the upgrade. I debated about going with Garmin GTX-345 and the L-3 9000. My main recent concern was the likelihood the ADS-B solution was going to be rescinded. Despite Trump's claim that this is the wrong solution, I agree that this is too far down the path to be rescinded. Another concern was how many of the planes out there will never get the upgrade because they don't fly in ADS-B mandated areas. The third concern was whether waiting was going to change what I bought.

With these three factors in consideration, I opted for the L-3 9000+. Although I will not get FIS-B on my Garmin GTN-650 from the L3, I will get weather and traffic on my Aspen. I expect the certified panel mounted boxes will have better performance than my Garmin GDL-39 portable. That said, I am not seeing it pick up the ground based antennas until I am over 1,500' above the ground. In my opinion, if I am flying in a non-ADS-B required area, I may not see a mode C plane until I can pick up the ground based system. An active solution for this reason made sense to me.

Has Navworx gotten their problem with the FAA resolved?

[Raptor05121]

The Navworx unit recently got in a fuffle with the FAA about the legality of their GPS unit. I was eyeing their unit, but with the hot water they are in right now, I'm looking at the Stratus ESB. I'm wondering if I should go 1090 if I ever want to go to the Bahamas. 

[231LV]

Great responses from everybody and lots of options which is really good. Regarding the Navworx and the FAA, who knows?? They say on their website that they are "soldiering on"...does that mean they are likely to go out of business? I don't have a good answer so it is a factor in figuring out the final solution...Regarding "patch work solutions" one poster mentioned...umm....not from where I sit. I have been thinking this through for the past couple of years (as I am sure others have, as well) but new products introduced constantly require renewed thinking and a dynamic situation that yields an obvious answer for all has not materialized, as near as I can tell. Regarding my particular mission...largely VFR but I maintain my IFR currency. Occasional cross-country trips and trips to Mexico (though when we were down in Mexico last week we all highly doubt the 1090 ES solution will be required equipment in Mexico for the foreseeable future since they barely have functional VOR's...Canada will likely require but I haven't made a trip up there yet). I don't do well above 18k ft physiologically and typically fly at 17 to 18k...been above 18k a couple of times but not enough to sway me toward a 1090ES solution on its own. I am not currently WAAS and wasn't planning to upgrade but I do have a Mode S transponder so the Navworx solution works for me. The whole ADS-B pitfalls are moot points since we all have to have it but I agree that compared to the WxWorx satellite program, it does come up short not being useful until around 1500 ft, relying on a ground station that may or may not be working at the moment and not seeing clouds but the offset is it is "free" although we pay for it through our taxes...tradeoffs. Regarding the Aspen, I love it..it is the IFR cert unit (1000PFD) and I'm seriously considering a second one which is why the Lynx is intriguing and prohibitive at the same time. It would be really cool to see traffic on my Aspen but to purchase the Lynx and do all the install, I suspect one will be well north of $5k...more like $8kish...another Aspen box is $12k plus install (if I want the IFR unit which could be the redundancy from the first)...VFR box is much cheaper. So for $20k, I can have a second Aspen MFD, and ADS-B In/Out solution and traffic on my Aspen...for around $8-9K...my current Aspen box plus ADS-B In/Out solution and traffic on my Aspen or for about $2k, I can have ADS-B In/Out and traffic on my iPad.......but no trips to the Bahamas or Canada.....that could be a deal breaker

Edited March 26, 2017 by 231LV

[carusoam]

Great follow-up technical details 231LV.

But it looks like you may have fell out of the CB club with the extra color screen!  

SnF marks the beginning of new product announcements.

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

Regardless whether or not you intend to fly in Class A, your aircraft service ceiling allows it now and thus putting in a UAT device lowers the legal ceiling come 2020. Potential buyers will look at that as a downgrade and thus you'll pay again in resale value when you sell. We've seen some avionics shops frown on doing that, out of fear of it coming back to haunt them when the pilot ignores the limitation. I personally wouldn't dream of doing that because I value the planes class A capability.

Navworx is not going to win against the FAA. They entirely violated the TSO requirements by impersonating a level they are not. 

[Raptor05121]

33 minutes ago, kortopates said:

 

Navworx is not going to win against the FAA. They entirely violated the TSO requirements by impersonating a level they are not. 

 

Everything I am reading is pointing towards the FAA had CHANGED the TSO which caused their receivers to fall out of compliance.

[gsengle]

I infer from the OP's name and a lookup in the FAA registry that this is a K model. Have to strongly concur with kortopates that it would be a mistake to go with a UAT solution. This would harm your resale value well out of proportion to the cost difference.

 

Most buyers would look at the UAT solution as a headache to rip out, not as a plus... people don't buy a K to stay under 18k all the time. I went 1090ES just to preserve my R's 20k service ceiling - and I've never been up there...

 

I don't see why you'd have to add another Aspen box to make the Lynx worthwhile, you already have an Aspen PFD, yes?

 

Just my .02 having recently gone through this.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, 231LV said:

Great responses from everybody and lots of options which is really good. Regarding the Navworx and the FAA, who knows?? They say on their website that they are "soldiering on"...does that mean they are likely to go out of business? I don't have a good answer so it is a factor in figuring out the final solution...Regarding "patch work solutions" one poster mentioned...umm....not from where I sit. I have been thinking this through for the past couple of years (as I am sure others have, as well) but new products introduced constantly require renewed thinking and a dynamic situation that yields an obvious answer for all has not materialized, as near as I can tell. Regarding my particular mission...largely VFR but I maintain my IFR currency. Occasional cross-country trips and trips to Mexico (though when we were down in Mexico last week we all highly doubt the 1090 ES solution will be required equipment in Mexico for the foreseeable future since they barely have functional VOR's...Canada will likely require but I haven't made a trip up there yet). I don't do well above 18k ft physiologically and typically fly at 17 to 18k...been above 18k a couple of times but not enough to sway me toward a 1090ES solution on its own. I am not currently WAAS and wasn't planning to upgrade but I do have a Mode S transponder so the Navworx solution works for me. The whole ADS-B pitfalls are moot points since we all have to have it but I agree that compared to the WxWorx satellite program, it does come up short not being useful until around 1500 ft, relying on a ground station that may or may not be working at the moment and not seeing clouds but the offset is it is "free" although we pay for it through our taxes...tradeoffs. Regarding the Aspen, I love it..it is the IFR cert unit (1000PFD) and I'm seriously considering a second one which is why the Lynx is intriguing and prohibitive at the same time. It would be really cool to see traffic on my Aspen but to purchase the Lynx and do all the install, I suspect one will be well north of $5k...more like $8kish...another Aspen box is $12k plus install (if I want the IFR unit which could be the redundancy from the first)...VFR box is much cheaper. So for $20k, I can have a second Aspen MFD, and ADS-B In/Out solution and traffic on my Aspen...for around $8-9K...my current Aspen box plus ADS-B In/Out solution and traffic on my Aspen or for about $2k, I can have ADS-B In/Out and traffic on my iPad.......but no trips to the Bahamas or Canada.....that could be a deal breaker

Go on, do it!! You'll love the second Aspen. I can't wait until I see the L-3 9000+ traffic and weather show up on the Aspen MFD. I enjoy having the WX-500 output on the MFD and find the MFD contains a lot of useful information today and will have even more when the METARs and other weather begin showing up on it.

[gsengle]

Nice! Any idea how dual Aspen would compare to say a G500 instillation? Cost wise?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[231LV]

The issues mentioned regarding Navworx and the 978 mhz versus 1090es mhz are very real and serious considerations. I hadn't thought about future resale value since I don't plan to ever sell but my estate undoubtably will! I don't have to have a second Aspen (though I would very much like one) and IF I can swing it, the Lynx set up would be my preferred solution. IF I can't....then I have to consider the navworx or something else.....great discussion and thoughts from all! Thanks

[tigers2007]

If you are getting the Garmin G5 and are hoping/praying that they will also certify a second G5 to work as a heading indicator/HSI, then you are ahead of the game if you just install an Aspen VFR. For $4400 or so (like bluehighwayflyer pointed out) you get the attitude + heading indicator and you are done PLUS you have the future option of upgrading to the Pro without tearing up your dash again. "Just be done with it" is what a good friend of mine always tells me. Add $600-1000 for the ACU (Analogue Control Unit) to link with your old style autopilot for heading & GPSS. To upgrade to the Pro PFD, all you do is pay Aspen a $5000 or so bounty and they do a software upgrade - they are not gouging either; just charging the difference in price. My unique situation is that to overhaul my attitude and heading indicators (that my Century IIb uses for reference), I'm already out almost 2 AMU's for parts and labour -- all of which I could have avoided if I had installed the Aspen VFR.

[gsengle]

I'm certain the next time the KI256 needs overhaul I'll go all electric and fancy digital and all. I just hope with all the EAA led STC action, options will expand greatly in the next few years...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Marauder]

3 hours ago, gsengle said:

Nice! Any idea how dual Aspen would compare to say a G500 instillation? Cost wise?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A lot will depend on what you are connecting to it. The Aspens provide full support of analog equipment through the inclusion of the ACU or ACU 2. If you a BK autopilot, you will need to factor in the EA100. The Garmin G500 requires the purchase of the GAD 43 or 43e. When I did the Aspen install in late 2012, the price difference was pretty sizeable with the Aspen being a lot cheaper. 

I would ask for a quote for each from a couple of shops to compare. Just make sure you are comparing apples to apples. When I bought, the G500 did not offer battery backup. The Aspens did. The G500 now has a battery backup but I hear it is pricey. The Aspen's PFD can be ported to the MFD in case of the PFD failure. The G500 cannot. The G500 has a larger display which some find easier to see. The Aspens will fit in a a standard instrument panel hole. The G500 requires the panel to be cut. Like I said, need to compare apples to apples. They are both great units.

[Cyril Gibb]

17 hours ago, 231LV said:

Canada will likely require but I haven't made a trip up there yet).

ABSB is not required in Canada, nor is it proposed (yet).  It's only available at high altitudes on the trans-Atlantic corridor.  NavCanada is partnering with Iridium and a few other countries to have a satellite based ADSB.  I think that's expected to be available, but not required, sometime in 2018.

[231LV]

15 hours ago, gsengle said:

I'm certain the next time the KI256 needs overhaul I'll go all electric and fancy digital and all. I just hope with all the EAA led STC action, options will expand greatly in the next few years...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Check out the Dynon EFISD100....STC'd for every Mooney and the EAA will sell the STC for membership and $100....the Dynon gives you A LOT of capability for about 1/2 the cost of a VFR Aspen box. This probably belongs under its own topic heading but the EAA is doing great stuff to bring reasonably priced avionics into the certified cockpit.http://www.dynonavionics.com/retrofit/

Edited March 27, 2017 by 231LV
include link

[RLCarter]

Saw this a while back, might be of some value

[gsengle]

Check out the Dynon EFISD100....STC'd for every Mooney and the EAA will sell the STC for membership and $100....the Dynon gives you A LOT of capability for about 1/2 the cost of a VFR Aspen box. This probably belongs under its own topic heading but the EAA is doing great stuff to bring reasonably priced avionics into the certified cockpit.http://www.dynonavionics.com/retrofit/

I need to drive a king kfc150...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[231LV]

Let me do an update to this thread since I have done more research and am scheduled for the plane to go into the shop next Monday. First, after discussing my needs/concerns with the avionics shop manager, I have elected to do the following: upgrade my current Garmin 430 to WAAS...around $5 AMU's. Upgrade my Garmin GTX 330 to 1090 ES..around $2 AMU's plus tax takes me close to $8...I get ADS-B In/Out, interface with iPad for traffic and I am compliant with 2020. Of course, that got me to thinking about where I want to be in the future and is this the most efficient path forward...first off, the Boss, "La Patrona", SWMBO "She Who Must Be Obeyed" has informed me that she does not like the look of twin Aspen 1000's in the panel...she wants something "flatter"....ie, an MFD screen. Since I was originally planning to go with a second Aspen (already have the first installed) and the installed price for that second unit is about $16 AMU's, I'm now wondering about removing the Aspen and replacing it with a G500 or GTN 750 instead. I'm driving a Century 41 A/P so that should not present a problem with the Garmin setup and La Patrona likes the look of the Garmin over the twin Aspens. Before I call the shop manager to discuss "options" I'm wondering if anyone else is where or has been where I am at now and can offer their thoughts?....Oh...as a rehash...I am IFR certified and maintain currency but don't do much actual IMC...trips are cross country, out of the country, occasionally and short 1  to 3 hour hops around the southwest (where we live)