G-OBAL refit

[Hank]

24 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

Once we get her out of these engineers hands ill be a lot happier and hopefully that is literally a few days away.  

I realize there is a difference in meaning of "engineers," but some of my alleged friends in Production and Scheduling have a saying:

"At some point, you have to shoot the engineers and start production."

          --signed, Bachelor's and Master's Degrees in Engineering, three decades' in Production Support

[Marauder]

I realize there is a difference in meaning of "engineers," but some of my alleged friends in Production and Scheduling have a saying:
"At some point, you have to shoot the engineers and start production."
          --signed, Bachelor's and Master's Degrees in Engineering, three decades' in Production Support

If I am not mistaken, in some states in the United States, it is illegal to call yourself an engineer by title unless you actually possess an engineering degree.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[milotron]

53 minutes ago, Marauder said:

If I am not mistaken, in some states in the United States, it is illegal to call yourself an engineer by title unless you actually possess an engineering degree.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

This is definitely the case in Canada.  When Microsoft first came out with their 'Microsoft Systems Engineer' title, there was issues as they are not 'engineers' in the legal sense and do not have an engineering degree.

 

Plus they didn't know the secret hand shake....

 

iain

[Hyett6420]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

I realize there is a difference in meaning of "engineers," but some of my alleged friends in Production and Scheduling have a saying:

"At some point, you have to shoot the engineers and start production."

          --signed, Bachelor's and Master's Degrees in Engineering, three decades' in Production Support

Ah well you see our sort of mess with the word engineers comes from the evolution of the word from bridge, road, ship builder to incorporate when they invented them engines, so a railway engineer became someone who not only designed and built railways but also someone who worked on the steam engines, note not necessarily the same person obviously.  

I love our language sometimes.   

[Hyett6420]

19 minutes ago, milotron said:

This is definitely the case in Canada.  When Microsoft first came out with their 'Microsoft Systems Engineer' title, there was issues as they are not 'engineers' in the legal sense and do not have an engineering degree.

 

Plus they didn't know the secret hand shake....

 

iain

Over here you cant call yourself a Chartered Engineer without a degree. Nor i dont think a structural engineer. Wiki probably has more details

[PaulM]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

f I am not mistaken, in some states in the United States, it is illegal to call yourself an engineer by title unless you actually possess an engineering degree.

Worse, than that... you can have a Degree in Engineering.. but If you have not passed the state PE (Professional Engineering) test   you can't call yourself an Engineer in that state.  TX was notorious for this.    Usually only Engineering disciplines that were required to sign government paperwork would get the PE... therefore almost all Electrical Engineers don't have it.. Some MechE and ChemE have it.. and Almost all Civil Engineers have one.. 

[Danb]

What if you pilot a train,I thought they were engineers 

[Marauder]

What if you pilot a train,I thought they were engineers 

 

Yep, definitely an engineer drove the train. My Dad was a Conductor on the railroad but he didn’t play a musical instrument

[cliffy]

Yes, but did he wave a wand around?   :-)  :-) :-)

 

 

 

[Hyett6420]

4 hours ago, cliffy said:

Yes, but did he wave a wand around?   :-)  :-) :-)

 

 

 

Probably with a green flag attached.  

Lamguage is a funny thing, for instance, SAL in latin becomes salary in English because they were paid in salt, but SAL stays as salt in Spanish and French as salt, but becomes salario in Spanish.  Lingua in latin means language, but if you say lingua quickly enough and often enough you can see how it has evolved to language or in Spanish lengua. Engineer being the same.

[Marauder]

13 hours ago, cliffy said:

Yes, but did he wave a wand around?   :-)  :-) :-)

 

 

 

I know he did a lot of finger pointing until he lost them in a Gondola load shift accident.

[Hyett6420]

Trim switches and Autopilots.

AL has ALWAYS had an issue with the trim switch / AP.  let me explain.  If you flick on the trim switch and then 10 secs later try to test the AP (KFC 150) you get the constant beep beep noise that goes on for ever.  If I turn the trim switch on, then go and do the power checks, comb my hair, apply eye liner (you get the idea) THEN test the AP it does its self test and works ok 90% of the time.  There are a few times when it fails and I have to move the trim wheel, either manually or electrically (normally the latter) and then it self tests ok.  

So thoughts on a post card as to what the issue MAY be.  I won't shoot anyone if you are wrong, I just need to know where to look when she comes back from the shop. we may need to do a trade deal with you guys on the 30th anyway 

Thanks in advance.

[Andy95W]

I'm going to guess a "dead" spot on the electric trim motor.  

Have you tried running the trim full up and full down about 10 or 20 times (with the engine running, of course)?

[Hyett6420]

2 hours ago, Andy95W said:

I'm going to guess a "dead" spot on the electric trim motor.  

Have you tried running the trim full up and full down about 10 or 20 times (with the engine running, of course)?

No to be honest, although electric trim works fine in flight with no issues..  Why a dead spot on the trim motor though if this happens EVERY flight.  Why would waiting a few minutes after activating the trim switch fix a dead spot.  Not questioning your answer, just trying to understand how you came to that conclusion.  

Thanks in advance

andrew

[Andy95W]

Well, maybe not a dead spot, per se, but general wear and corrosion on things like brushes and armatures.  Basically, my suggestion was a quick and dirty (and cheap) thing to try to see if it helps.

From what I remember of BK autopilots, the test circuit checks all sorts of continuities and components before it gives the ok.  Yours, for some reason, doesn't seem to like talking to the trim until it's all warmed up- which could point toward either dirty contacts or perhaps a clutch mechanism that takes a while to wake up.  This could also explain why sometimes you need to move the trim for the autopilot to test properly.  

Going along with the checking components/etc.- the trim switch could have crud on the contacts as well, but it normally gets exercised enough to keep them clean.

But I'll be the first to say that I'm no expert at autopilots.  I'm just throwing out some ideas that are (barely) worth the electrons they're printed with!

[Hyett6420]

8 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Well, maybe not a dead spot, per se, but general wear and corrosion on things like brushes and armatures.  Basically, my suggestion was a quick and dirty (and cheap) thing to try to see if it helps.

From what I remember of BK autopilots, the test circuit checks all sorts of continuities and components before it gives the ok.  Yours, for some reason, doesn't seem to like talking to the trim until it's all warmed up- which could point toward either dirty contacts or perhaps a clutch mechanism that takes a while to wake up.  This could also explain why sometimes you need to move the trim for the autopilot to test properly.  

Going along with the checking components/etc.- the trim switch could have crud on the contacts as well, but it normally gets exercised enough to keep them clean.

But I'll be the first to say that I'm no expert at autopilots.  I'm just throwing out some ideas that are (barely) worth the electrons they're printed with!

Andy thank you, that makes perfect sense, ill go away and check.  Do a bit of contact cleaning etc.  It would surprise me that its that as she had that old alternator guage flicker for a while till i cleaned those contacts.  

These birds have so many little components.  I looked at the thread of the jack screw the other day for the trim, WOW thats a compliceted bit of kit.  I can see now why a lot of ga aircraft have a trim tab and not a whole tail move appendage.  

Thank you for the info.

[larryb]

I read over on beachtalk that there is a trim switch return spring that gets weak. Try re-centering it manually after flicking it. It sounds like it could be your problem.

[larryb]

Now that I'm back at my computer and not my iPhone I can add a bit more. Every time I see some piece of info on a forum that I think can be helpful in the future I save it to a text file. Here is the detail on the trim spring:

Christopher If the system functions properly other than the engage issue, I would not suspect the 
computer this early. One of the common issues with the KFC 150 (and KFC 200 for that matter), is 
the the manual electric trim switch on the pilots yoke. The return springs get weak and eventually 
fail to the point where the AP disengage section of the assembly remains in the disconnect position 
rendering the system inop. You can check for this by observing how well the two levers of the split 
switch spring back to center when released. The next time you see the failure, center the switch 
levers with your thumb and try to engage. If this is the cause, chances are good it will work. There
are some other checks and questions, give a call if you would like.

Bob Weber
WebAir Consulting
616 822 1999

 

[carusoam]

[Hyett6420]

15 hours ago, carusoam said:

Wow thats really cool. Ill have a look thank you. 

[Hyett6420]

On 3/15/2019 at 8:50 PM, larryb said:

Now that I'm back at my computer and not my iPhone I can add a bit more. Every time I see some piece of info on a forum that I think can be helpful in the future I save it to a text file. Here is the detail on the trim spring:

Christopher If the system functions properly other than the engage issue, I would not suspect the 
computer this early. One of the common issues with the KFC 150 (and KFC 200 for that matter), is 
the the manual electric trim switch on the pilots yoke. The return springs get weak and eventually 
fail to the point where the AP disengage section of the assembly remains in the disconnect position 
rendering the system inop. You can check for this by observing how well the two levers of the split 
switch spring back to center when released. The next time you see the failure, center the switch 
levers with your thumb and try to engage. If this is the cause, chances are good it will work. There
are some other checks and questions, give a call if you would like.

Bob Weber
WebAir Consulting
616 822 1999

 

Really usedul. Thank you.  Can the springs be replaced easily?  

[larryb]

8 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Really usedul. Thank you.  Can the springs be replaced easily?  

Sorry that's all I know. I have not had to actually do this myself. But if I do, I'd probably try to find a generic spring. 

https://www.mcmaster.com/springs

[Hyett6420]

Interesting thing i discovered today.  I was in the plane on the ground and manually moving the trim, full forward and full backward.  I then wanted to do the same but with the electric trim.  So i turned the master on, flicked the electric trim switch on (the whote cb type switch on the instrument panel)  then moved the yoke trim switch and nothing happened.  Checked the circuit breakers and all was ok.  So I then turned the RADIO master on and the yoke trim switch now moved the trim.

So my question is, is this a normal setup?  I would assume it is, as my thought process wpuld be that the trim is connected in somehow to the autopilot, and that comes alive with the radio master.  

Andrew

[bradp]

It’s a really simple fix but no this is not a normal setup.  Trim should run off the master / main bus.  Do you have a pic of your panel and CB panel? Some mooneys have a CB switch, some have a separate breaker.  
 

You just need to run the trim CB on the main bus and not the radio bus.  It could be as simple as adding a wire, as complex as taking apart your entire bus and cutting an inch or so off, rearranging the orientation of the CBs and relabeling. 
 

Weird that your AP is on the radio master - mine is on the main bus as well

[Hyett6420]

4 minutes ago, bradp said:

It’s a really simple fix but no this is not a normal setup.  Trim should run off the master / main bus.  Do you have a pic of your panel and CB panel? Some mooneys have a CB switch, some have a separate breaker.  
 

You just need to run the trim CB on the main bus and not the radio bus.  It could be as simple as adding a wire, as complex as taking apart your entire bus and cutting an inch or so off, rearranging the orientation of the CBs and relabeling. 
 

Weird that your AP is on the radio master - mine is on the main bus as well