Steep Turn Base to Final

[Marauder]

My understanding of his comment was just the opposite. He said that an AoA indicator is a stupid instrument (because) if you don't know (what your angle of attack is without the instrument) you shouldn't be flying.  He was, after all, the quintessential "seat of the pants" aviator, whereas, Scott Crossfield, for instance, was the engineer/technician.

Jim

A few of my LEO friends always told me you need to take a grain of salt when listening to a "witness" report of an event. Even with Yeager's comments recorded and viewable over and over again, people draw their own conclusion on his comments.

Having read his book, I'm sure your interpretation is correct. He was/is the quintessential "seat of the pants" aviator.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Chris from PA]

I am a US Air Force/FlightSafety Int'l trained professional pilot. Like many others here, I put food on my table by flying. I've owned my Mooney less than a year so I'm still learning. That said, I find angle of attack presentation in the cockpit to be an excellent tool in a whole bag of tools available to us. However, I have never before heard advocated, nor would I ever attempt, some of the maneuvers described in this thread. 

[Mooneymite]

Just now, Chris from PA said:

I am a US Air Force/FlightSafety Int'l trained professional pilot. Like many others here, I put food on my table by flying. I've owned my Mooney less than a year so I'm still learning. That said, I find angle of attack presentation in the cockpit to be an excellent tool in a whole bag of tools available to us. However, I have never before heard advocated, nor would I ever attempt, some of the maneuvers described in this thread. 

That's  worth repeating.

Well said.

[Marauder]

37 minutes ago, Chris from PA said:

I am a US Air Force/FlightSafety Int'l trained professional pilot. Like many others here, I put food on my table by flying. I've owned my Mooney less than a year so I'm still learning. That said, I find angle of attack presentation in the cockpit to be an excellent tool in a whole bag of tools available to us. However, I have never before heard advocated, nor would I ever attempt, some of the maneuvers described in this thread. 

You mean you didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express to gain this carnal knowledge? 

[jetdriven]

IDK, I also feed my family by flying, might have even flown a jet or two, and I saw nothing wrong with that video, or the concept of banking over 30 degrees in the pattern.  In fact my standard bank is 30 degrees and 45 is nothing unusual. Go to 60? Have at it, just be at sufficient airspeed and dont pull so hard. Know your airplane. 

Edited September 7, 2016 by jetdriven

[ArtVandelay]

I am a US Air Force/FlightSafety Int'l trained professional pilot. Like many others here, I put food on my table by flying. I've owned my Mooney less than a year so I'm still learning. That said, I find angle of attack presentation in the cockpit to be an excellent tool in a whole bag of tools available to us. However, I have never before heard advocated, nor would I ever attempt, some of the maneuvers described in this thread. 

How much do you look at your instrument panel during landing maneuvers? An AOA indicator is useless during landings if you can't see it, to me an AOA must have audio alerts. There is a reason gear and stall warnings present as audio and not light annunciations.

Other than a quick check of airspeed and gear down light when on short final, my eyes are looking out, thats the way I was taught.

[MyNameIsNobody]

8 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I watched, and I think Yeager's answer meant "if you don't know what an AoA indicator is you shouldn't be flying"

Any other interpretation seems nonsensical: How do you know your AOA without a measurement device?

You may know your plane's stall speed vs G load vs weight, sure.  But if your airspeed is, say, 27 knots above 1G gross weight stall, but you're in a 19 degree bank loaded to 1.56G at 342 pounds below gross do you know your AOA?   

My POH doesn't provide information needed to calculate AOA in even one specific case, let alone for a cross-control descending turn.

However, my basic aerobatics text advises how to enter a snap roll:  load up the wing and yaw the plane, and around you go.  

Just don't do it turning base to final.  

 

 

Now THAT's Funny!  Both Funny Ha Ha and Funny strange.  Funny, Like man made global warming.  Funny, like we can provide all the electricity we need with wind and solar.  Funny, Like it's just a little coughing.

Ya know funny.  Funny like justification for a General Aviation Pilot to do a steep bank on final when they don't fly a stable approach.

Funny like making fun of somebody that acts omnipotent by sending them a backward complement that they are "perfect" and having somebody say: "No one is perfect"...Ya there is a lot of funny here.  Funny like defending a "friend" that you like and drink a beer with at Oshkosh when he is wrong and maybe someday will be "Dead Wrong".  Now that...THAT is NOT FUNNY.

I know exactly what tone is.  It takes one to know one ya know?  Ya, you all know.  FUNNY.

[MyNameIsNobody]

38 minutes ago, Marauder said:

You mean you didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express to gain this carnal knowledge? 

That is Naval aviators....

 

 

[MyNameIsNobody]

"You better check that ego kid.  It's writing check it can't cash"...

[Mooneymite]

43 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

IDK, I also feed my family by flying, might have even flown a jet or two, and I saw nothing wrong with that video, or the concept of banking over 30 degrees in the pattern.  In fact my standard bank is 30 degrees and 45 is nothing unusual. Go to 60? Have at it, just be at sufficient airspeed and dont pull so hard. Know your airplane. 

Hmmmm.  

Reading your post my autoschdeiastic response is that you are mistaking what can be done safely by some people in some airplanes with what should be recommended and held forth as some sort of  "standard".  I have thousands of hours flying, I also have served as a Navy wing Natops check pilot, and as a line check airman for a major 121 carrier.  I've watched skilled airmen quite a bit and know there are lots of different ways to fly planes.  I presently own an aerobatic biplane and fly it (sometimes) well outside what I would recommend for others.  Yes, planes can be flown by the seat of the pants with an AOA indicator and without an AOA indicator, but what I recommend is that planes be flown "according to the book", and approaches be stabilized.  Let's all be safe and recommend that other be safe, too.

My fervent hope is that Mike's Mooney Summit Fund will never again ever have to help a Mooney accident victim, or his family.  

[MB65E]

For the purpose of discussion...

How bout the thought process of an AOA on a helicopter? (With the blade angle, not flight angle) Now that might be really helpful!!! 

Having flown by the seat of my pants for 1700 hrs, I'm just now beginning to think of how useful aoa could be. While recently flying a Citation, one of our pilots pointed out to me another use of AOA. Flight Safety and a few others are now teaching the use of the AOA during the climb. Instead of climb at x,y, or z they are now teaching climbing at a ceritin AOA. This helps when your true airspeed vs indicates really starts to drift up at altitude. Climbing at a certain AOA ( say somewhere around .36 aoa) will also give you max efficiency down range. Flying the AOA while climbing is more accurate than looking at the ASI. This all really helps when you can't  see what the wing is doing behind you and when you are in the clouds. 

Just some observations,

-Matt

 

[AndyFromCB]

Just now, MB65E said:

For the purpose of discussion...

How bout the thought process of an AOA on a helicopter? Now that might be really helpful!!! 

Having flown by the seat of my pants for 1700 hrs, I'm just now beginning to think of how useful aoa could be. While recently flying a Citation, one of our pilots pointed out to me another use of AOA. Flight Safety and a few others are now teaching the use of the AOA during the climb. Instead of climb at x,y, or z they are now teaching climbing at a ceritin AOA. This helps when your true airspeed vs indicates really starts to drift up at altitude. Climbing at a certain AOA ( say somewhere around .36 aoa) will also give you max efficiency down range. Flying the AOA while climbing is more accurate than looking at the ASI. This all really helps when you can't  see what the wing is doing behind you and when you are in the clouds. 

Just some observations,

-Matt

 

It works wonders on a Citation, or any jet, where the climb speed spread between bottom and top of the altitude range is rather large. Once again, what is on a Mooney? 5knots? I understand we're all cheap here, but it's going to take you a long, long time to recover the cost of the gizmo by maximizing your Xy and getting an extra 15fpm from your climbs. If your life depends on extra 15fpm, you're doing it wrong. In that case, I'd stick to something that will slam into the trees at 45mph, not 85...

[Browncbr1]

For amusement,  i found the ground video of the video posted on the previous page.

 

[AndyFromCB]

For all you alls claiming you can stall at any speed, I found a speed above which you can safely do whatever you want to do in the pattern without exceeding design parameters of your long body mooney and it's 82.6knots as per Section II, Limitations, your load factor limit with flaps down is 2g. I feel better already, for a little while I thought I was going to have hang my hat after 17 years in the air, being I could just stall at any speed and leave my chia pet without a Dad.

Edited September 7, 2016 by AndyFromCB

[AndyFromCB]

Just now, Browncbr1 said:

For amusement,  i found the ground video of the video posted on the previous page.

 

I'm not seeing an AOA probe on the nose anywhere in this video. I wonder how they managed...

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

My fervent hope is that Mike's Mooney Summit Fund will never again ever have to help a Mooney accident victim, or his family

Gus, that is exactly my hope for the Bill Gilliland foundation. In 5 years or so, when I have taken enough abuse from the Mooney Summit, I would rather recommend to the Board of Directors that we use the funds to have a REAL party! Unfortunately, we have sent out 7 (I believe, have to check with wifey) letters since the last Mooney Summit and wrote 2 checks. This is a very difficult task for her to do, and saddens us terribly. Lets not sadden my wife Alice anymore, especially by testing the limits when we could just be safe. I have refrained from chiming in until now, but lets just say I instruct people to fly always erring on the side of conservativism and safety, not at an edge. It hurts a lot to recover from a plane accident, no matter what the cause. 

[ArtVandelay]

For all you alls claiming you can stall at any speed, I found a speed above which you can safely do whatever you want to do in the pattern without exceeding design parameters of your long body mooney and it's 82.6knots as per Section II, Limitations, your load factor limit with flaps down is 2g. I feel better already, for a little while I thought I was going to have hang my hat after 17 years in the air, being I could just stall at any speed and leave my chia pet without a Dad.

That poor dog, that qualifies as animal abuse.

[Hank]

7 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

For amusement,  i found the ground video of the video posted on the previous page.

 

I can't understand the language being spoken, but:

1. The tone of voice says it without needing a translation
2. Look how far he went still too fast to lower the tail
3. The base-to-final turn was level, the descent was finished before the turn started. Subtract extra point for this . . .

[alex]

touch of arrogance here....dash of "mas macho" there....Mooneyspace is both entertaining and  frustrating. What I got from this post is that idiots rely on airspeed  and real pilots fly angle of attack but the instrument that everyone needs is a G-meter preferably with an alarm that warns you when you hit a combination of 100 MPH and  2Gs....heehee  

where can I get one?

[Bennett]

touch of arrogance here....dash of "mas macho" there....Mooneyspace is both entertaining and  frustrating. What I got from this post is that idiots rely on airspeed  and real pilots fly angle of attack but the instrument that everyone needs is a G-meter preferably with an alarm that warns you when you hit a combination of 100 MPH and  2Gs....heehee  

where can I get one?

Dynon D2 "portable" EFIS

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, alex said:

touch of arrogance here....dash of "mas macho" there....Mooneyspace is both entertaining and  frustrating. What I got from this post is that idiots rely on airspeed  and real pilots fly angle of attack but the instrument that everyone needs is a G-meter preferably with an alarm that warns you when you hit a combination of 100 MPH and  2Gs....heehee  

where can I get one?

IDK its called being a pilot and knowing your airplane. CNOE and I landed my J and stopped 900' from the threshiold with a tennis ball over the pitot tube. Ask him how scared he got, or how many times the stall warning went off. And this doesnt even require any more than average skill. I teach the 900' landing to all my Mooney pilots.  But yes, I suppose there are people I havent met yet, and statistically half of us are below average.  But training can almost always get you there.

  I have never seen so much outright hostility over a 45 degree bank.  Probably the same fear with power on stalls. Voodoo. "you just never know".  Its "foolish", "risky",  We once "read of a guy who got into to a spin"..., see I told you they were dangerous...   Just don't go there.  NVM its a required item on the PPL and CPL checkrides.

Id bet that most pilots who overhsoot final, stomp on the rudder, and stall the plane weren't really in control of their machine at the beginning of that maneuver And they had never practiced it. It is a normal manuever and not even near the edge of the envelope unless slow. Well, so is a normal landing.

Yet somehow, also, there is a parallel situation here. There evidently is some "debate" about engine failure on takeoff and return to the runway, and they always point to that AOPA video where one M20C guy did it. Yes he did, but he set the stall warning off several times, barely cleared the trees, and then damn near ran off the side of the runway yanking it (45 degrees IIRC) WITH THE STALL WARNING GOING OFF, and all I read on that thread was a dozen or so "ataboys", "good pilot" etc.  Well, he got lucky.  Yeah. If it wasnt -20C outside he would have TO turnback at 500'.  He's a badass, while a guy flying 95 knots in a lightweight J with AOA gets crucified for banking 45 degrees turning final. 

Edited September 8, 2016 by jetdriven

[alex]

That just seems like a really shitty preflight job but I digress. Hostility is stating that flying airspeed in the traffic pattern is stupid, that those who do it are going about an old fashioned, illogical, complex mind dance to try to derive or ballpark the information that can be provided most directly by AOA, that it is silly to be relying on en error prone airspeed indicator.....Arrogance is putting down all those who aviate using the equipment  that they have in their airplanes sans AOA's, that as far as I know are not standard.  

[jetdriven]

Definately a shitty preflight. But now there's a flag on the pitot tube, as there should have been all along.  

[MyNameIsNobody]

Nobody crucified Mike.  I love power on stalls...WITH THE BALL CENTERED.  Need another topic title for Uber pilots.  A spot I need not visit.  You are cavalier about a steep turn from base to final.  You continue to market.  I will NOT buy.  At any price.  You are a persistent salesman.  I will give you credit for that.  You have an opinion.  Others have an opinion.  There is still room on the "right" safer side...until the Uber pilot topic gets its spot on Mooneyspace.  All the formation guys can hang out there and tell stories of who was on their six and call signs can be bantered among the knowing...Those that understand and appreciate how great a pilot "you guys are"...compared to the "other guys" that fly standard patterns by the numbers...What a boring bunch.

Guilty as charged.

[N9201A]

"All the formation guys"....???

Aw, Nobody, were the big boys mean to you? Poor thing. Maybe you can grow a Chia dog and experience unconditional love.