K model cowl flaps

[martin077]

Hi every one,

I fly a M20K 262 mod since since few months and have a problem with the Cowl flap motor and need to replace it.

I can't read tne p/n on it ...

Does any body know it or could Help me with ?

I have see somes threads about an stc for a vernier control instead of a motor, what do You think about it ?

Thank You !

Martin

[Bryan]

My '82 M20K 231 cowl flaps open pretty easily on the ground but I experience the same thing:  Difficult to close at speed.  Following to find out if there is something that could be better.

[kortopates]

39 minutes ago, martin077 said:

Hi every one,

I fly a M20K 262 mod since since few months and have a problem with the Cowl flap motor and need to replace it.

I can't read tne p/n on it ...

Does any body know it or could Help me with ?

I have see somes threads about an stc for a vernier control instead of a motor, what do You think about it ?

Thank You !

Martin

The electric cowl flaps, creating infinitely adjustable cowl flaps, is one of the best features of the 252's cowling since it enables you provide just as little cooling as you need without incurring excessive drag. It couldn't be easier to operates since you set it where you want it and it won't change on you. I don't believe there is any approved cable replacement of the electric cowl flaps, just a prior owner that got frustrated with loosing the motor. 

Getting the motor repaired/overhauled is easy to do through Globe Motors in AL. Their turn around is about a week. Just search Mooneyspace for more than one thread discussing the details and contact info.

[kortopates]

On 6/25/2016 at 3:05 PM, DonMuncy said:

I may not have been clear. In the closed position, mine are open about an inch.

This normal Don, the closed position is suppose to be about an 1" to 1.5" open. Never fully closed. Mooney and Continental found early on in their 231 testing that fully closed closed caused two problem, not only no airflow but it also created back pressure at the cowling inlets which added significant drag cost measurable knots in airspeed. When properly rigged to be open a bit, not only does the closed position provide the necessary minimal airflow through the cowling  from top-front to bottom-rear, but the plane cruises a measurable number of knots faster too. I forget exact specifics, but I recall its was 3-4 kts.  

Edited June 19, 2017 by kortopates

[martin077]

On 2017-06-19 at 1:02 PM, kortopates said:

The electric cowl flaps, creating infinitely adjustable cowl flaps, is one of the best features of the 252's cowling since it enables you provide just as little cooling as you need without incurring excessive drag. It couldn't be easier to operates since you set it where you want it and it won't change on you. I don't believe there is any approved cable replacement of the electric cowl flaps, just a prior owner that got frustrated with loosing the motor. 

Getting the motor repaired/overhauled is easy to do through Globe Motors in AL. Their turn around is about a week. Just search Mooneyspace for more than one thread discussing the details and contact info.

I have sent the motor to Globe, after sending a lot of pictures to Bobbie Eldridge... they can't find out how it could be a 12 V motor

Hope that they will able to fix it !

If someone have a 12V system and know this p/n, just let me know, 

Thanks

 

[milotron]

On 6/19/2017 at 10:02 AM, kortopates said:

The electric cowl flaps, creating infinitely adjustable cowl flaps, is one of the best features of the 252's cowling since it enables you provide just as little cooling as you need without incurring excessive drag. It couldn't be easier to operates since you set it where you want it and it won't change on you. I don't believe there is any approved cable replacement of the electric cowl flaps, just a prior owner that got frustrated with loosing the motor. 

Getting the motor repaired/overhauled is easy to do through Globe Motors in AL. Their turn around is about a week. Just search Mooneyspace for more than one thread discussing the details and contact info.

My 262 has the vernier cable control for it. I think I have the paperwork in the folder that was part of the STC/mod also. Done by Modworks in 1991 I believe.  I have never seen another one like it though; all others are electric. 

The electric seems like a great solution until the motor fails and $$$.

[kortopates]

My 262 has the vernier cable control for it. I think I have the paperwork in the folder that was part of the STC/mod also. Done by Modworks in 1991 I believe.  I have never seen another one like it though; all others are electric. 
The electric seems like a great solution until the motor fails and $$$.

That begs the question, but I assume the 262 mod by them included the 252 cowling with the single lower cowl flap door. How they put the electric cowl flap motor in I don't know since Mooney did not use a 12V version but should really check the IPC to see if they have such a part. Interesting question.
But it's well worth it. No doubt I am getting a few knots speed improvement with it in every flight because of its adjustability and the first motor lasted 29 - didn't even actuality fail but I OH'd preemptively when I had the engine off since the hole on the shaft has worn elongated and I was concern for future failure. Globe said it was a tired motor. Cost was only a few hundred $ through globe and they send you a new motor, Mooney, whom I like to support as much as I can, charged $1400 then. Still the cheapest speed mod I have! If you can retrofit it, it's well worth it. I'd offer a ride in mine but I think we're far apart.


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[kortopates]

I have sent the motor to Globe, after sending a lot of pictures to Bobbie Eldridge... they can't find out how it could be a 12 V motor
Hope that they will able to fix it !
If someone have a 12V system and know this p/n, just let me know, 
Thanks
 

Me either because Mooney only used them in 24v aircraft. But check the K IPC to see if they listed a 12v to be sure. I wonder if you actually have a 24V that moves slower?
Keep in mind the new current motor spec that Globe returns has a larger holes in the shaft and you will likely have to drill out the 2 holes in the mating part as discussed in the other thread on this. But that is a good thing since it makes your old mating part like new again, I.e. Gets rid of wear in the original holes that have become elongated from wear.


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[milotron]

On 6/19/2017 at 10:09 AM, kortopates said:

This normal Don, the closed position is suppose to be about an 1" to 1.5" open. Never fully closed. Mooney and Continental found early on in their 231 testing that fully closed closed caused two problem, not only no airflow but it also created back pressure at the cowling inlets which added significant drag cost measurable knots in airspeed. When properly rigged to be open a bit, not only does the closed position provide the necessary minimal airflow through the cowling  from top-front to bottom-rear, but the plane cruises a measurable number of knots faster too. I forget exact specifics, but I recall its was 3-4 kts.  

This interests me. The STC for my cowl flap ( since I dug it up ) indicates for a minimum opening of 3.5" in the open position but is silent to the closed position. Mine close to about 1/2" or so. Where is the prescribed minimum opening in the closed position noted?  

This actually makes me feel much better about my cooling efficiency as my 'closed' position is WAY more closed then is necessary and I can virtually never run there except down low in the winter. I think my normal cruise position for <380 deg is about 1.5" out The vernier knob seems to have a 1:1 relationship with the flap opening.

[kortopates]

2 hours ago, milotron said:

This interests me. The STC for my cowl flap ( since I dug it up ) indicates for a minimum opening of 3.5" in the open position but is silent to the closed position. Mine close to about 1/2" or so. Where is the prescribed minimum opening in the closed position noted?  

This actually makes me feel much better about my cooling efficiency as my 'closed' position is WAY more closed then is necessary and I can virtually never run there except down low in the winter. I think my normal cruise position for <380 deg is about 1.5" out The vernier knob seems to have a 1:1 relationship with the flap opening.

The 252 flaps are rigged entirely differently than the 231. The 231 has only 3 positions and just like you said, its not practical to run your 252 at fully closed nor is practical to run the 231 that way, so the closed position actually has to allow for the minimum opening.

But since the 252 cowl flaps don't have this problem in that they are infinitely adjustable, instead they are rigged such that the closed door trailing edge is flush with the bottom cowling when closed; despite we don't actually operate them fully closed. When adjusted there, that gives the proper amount of opening in the fully open position and proper cowl flap degree of opening indication in the cockpit.

Also I believe you're telling me with your vernier cable control you retain the full adjust ability without any creeping - if that the case that's much better than I thought. I would love to see a picture of cockpit pedestal with the vernier control and position indicator since I have never see this setup.  

[milotron]

That is correct, no creep and fixed adjustment. Actually somewhat stiff to turn the knob to close the flaps after levelling off from climb. Good thing the vernier knob is larger than the norm.

 

There is no position indicator. From the parts manual, I suspect it could be added if I scrounged parts and changed the pedestal, but the vernier knob extension is a good representation of opening.

I don't have anything better, but see below. And, yes, I know one of the glareshield lamp covers is sitting on the floor. That is taken during the pre-buy review.

[LANCECASPER]

3 minutes ago, milotron said:

That's an ingenious design, simple but effective.

[kortopates]

7 minutes ago, milotron said:

That is correct, no creep and fixed adjustment. Actually somewhat stiff to turn the knob to close the flaps after levelling off from climb. Good thing the vernier knob is larger than the norm.

 

There is no position indicator. From the parts manual, I suspect it could be added if I scrounged parts and changed the pedestal, but the vernier knob extension is a good representation of opening.

I don't have anything better, but see below. And, yes, I know one of the glareshield lamp covers is sitting on the floor. That is taken during the pre-buy review.

 

Thanks for sharing, that's perfect and shows me how it was installed using the prior push/pull cable mount on the panel.

Since the 252 cowl flap indicator is directly below the trim and flaps indicator on the far right edge, it would be possible to add it to the pedestal but another cable would have to pulled through the firewall. Not sure its worth it. 

[carusoam]

That looks like the knob from a 1965 M20C prop control. Before the color blue became standard.  It was a giant black knob just like that.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited June 22, 2017 by carusoam

[milotron]

28 minutes ago, carusoam said:

That looks like the knob from a 1965 M20C prop control. Before the color blue became standard.  It was a giant black knob just like that.

Best regards,

-a-

HA! Great minds and such...

I was looking at the STC and noted that it was an OEM Mooney part number of some kind and I was wondering what application used this crazy over sized knob! Saved me from looking it up.

 

iain

[Mooney in Oz]

Any J owners or others who this may help, here are some photos of the vernier control knob that operates my cowl flaps.

 

[markejackson02]

Not to wander farther afield, but is there an STC to use a vernier control for cowl flaps on the early J model?  I have a manual push/pull that is only open and closed.  Half open would be awesome in Texas in the summer....

 

[markejackson02]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I have seen these vernier controlled cowl flaps before but have never seen a STC for them so I assume they are receiving field approvals. FWIW, you are supposed to have a half open position with your OEM manual push/pull system that most folks refer to as the "trail" position. Your system may need adjustment.

I have a very early J model (s/n 24-0048).  The cowl flaps slam closed as soon as the torque tube moves out from over center.  I have looked at the system quite closely but see nothing that would allow it to stop halfway.  

Was that put in place on later J models?

Edited June 22, 2017 by markejackson02
grammar

[markejackson02]

1 minute ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I see that you have been dealing with this issue for a while. As far as I know you should still have a trail position. Does your POH reference one as is referenced and photographed in the thread below?

Jim

 

I will check when I get home.  I can hold them manually open halfway but the system either wants to be open or closed.

[markejackson02]

On 6/22/2017 at 10:20 AM, markejackson02 said:

I will check when I get home.  I can hold them manually open halfway but the system either wants to be open or closed.

According to my POH, you are supposed to be able to pull the level 1/2 open (3").  I'm wondering if I missed something as stupid as tightening the friction lock or something.

[jrwilson]

1 minute ago, markejackson02 said:

According to my POH, you are supposed to be able to pull the level 1/2 open (3").  I'm wondering if I missed something as stupid as tightening the friction lock or something.

You probably need a new spring.  Mine were a bit sloppy but a new spring fixed it.  Your local MSC knows which one you need.  I got it from top gun and for aviation it was cheap and even easy to install.

[martin077]

On 2017-06-19 at 1:02 PM, kortopates said:

The electric cowl flaps, creating infinitely adjustable cowl flaps, is one of the best features of the 252's cowling since it enables you provide just as little cooling as you need without incurring excessive drag. It couldn't be easier to operates since you set it where you want it and it won't change on you. I don't believe there is any approved cable replacement of the electric cowl flaps, just a prior owner that got frustrated with loosing the motor. 

Getting the motor repaired/overhauled is easy to do through Globe Motors in AL. Their turn around is about a week. Just search Mooneyspace for more than one thread discussing the details and contact info.

Hi everyone,

3 weeks later , I still have the problem,

My cowlflap motor is at Globe since 3 weeks and they just announce me that they cannot fix it , and tell me to call Mooney. 

 

I have try to reach Mr Bob Meier  , owner of the Stc , without success...

If someone who know the 262 mod can help, Thank you

Martin

[milotron]

Can you get a local small motor winder to repair it and call it an owner manufactured part? I might be talking out of my a$$ but this would seem a reasonable solution to a unicorn of a motor.

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, martin077 said:

3 weeks later , I still have the problem, My cowlflap motor is at Globe since 3 weeks and they just announce me that they cannot fix it , and tell me to call Mooney. 

This guy overhauled the front cowl flap motor on my P337 a couple of years ago, $300 and it was back within 48 hours.:

Bob Bena
RLB Accessory Service
FAA Station KB2R946K
971 N Babbitt Avenue
Addison, IL 60101
630-543-9213 630-543-9213

[kortopates]

18 hours ago, martin077 said:

Hi everyone,

3 weeks later , I still have the problem,

My cowlflap motor is at Globe since 3 weeks and they just announce me that they cannot fix it , and tell me to call Mooney. 

 

I have try to reach Mr Bob Meier  , owner of the Stc , without success...

If someone who know the 262 mod can help, Thank you

Martin

Is that because they could not ascertain the proper part No for your 14V cowl flap motor? Since Globe does this work under their FAA repair certificate, they need to match it to the approved documentation and part number to issue a 337 for the overhaul - which is a new motor.

I do see Mooney spec'd a 14V cowl flap motor as part # 880050-509 and their description refers to "14V (Vendor P/N M409M302)" -- did you try these part numbers with Bobby at Global? The Vendor number should be Global's part #. That has got to be your motor # as its hard to imagine more than one used on the 262 conversions. BTW, All this information is in the M20K IPC which you should have.

Good luck!