Johnson bar fails and gear collapses in my Mooney 78934 at landing in KLZU

[N601RX]

After replacing the locking block you would have to reset the gear tension. 

[Shadrach]

I am beginning to doubt this was a rigging/preload issue and becoming more suspect that it was a manual gear familiarity issue.

[jetdriven]

according to my wife, it was in the middle position when she exited the plane. It was in gear down when collapse started to develop

If it's a gear preload issue the Johnson bar would have remained locked. It's easy to put the Johnson bar in the gear down position without moving the collar up fully enough to truly lock the bar.

[RobertGary1]

thank you for the answers. A couple of years ago I installed a new nav/com from Garmin which ran me 3 AMU. This was after I got my current insurance policy for Mooney. Do you think it would be a good or bad  idea to remove it before insurance adjuster arrives?

 

Believe it or not, if you remove anything at this point is illegal. I've heard that the insurance co's are going after this more aggressively. You would have had to remove it before the incident took place. So if they write off the plane they own it and everything installed at the point of the incident.

 

-Robert

[DonMuncy]

Talk to the insurance agent. If the radio was installed after the insured value was established, they should adjust the value. I have found the aircraft insurance folks to be generally fair if you deal with them fairly. Naturally, you will not get the full amount it cost you to have it put in, but if you could have pulled to out and sold it, you would have lost money as well.

[Andy95W]

It is important that we have the why on this accident.

 

At annual last year I had the (down) lock bracket replaced with the LASAR part. I frankly cannot imagine how the J-bar would come out after being seated and after applying the Maxwellian Tug to it.

How do you like the LASAR bracket? Mine is worn, but serviceable, but I was still considering swapping it out.

[RobertGary1]

Talk to the insurance agent. If the radio was installed after the insured value was established, they should adjust the value. I have found the aircraft insurance folks to be generally fair if you deal with them fairly. Naturally, you will not get the full amount it cost you to have it put in, but if you could have pulled to out and sold it, you would have lost money as well.

 

Worth a shot but I'd be surprised. You are supposed to call them as soon as the install is done and pay the additional premium to reflect the higher value. I just did that with my new engine. I sent them a check as soon as the install was finished.

 

-Robert

[kommers]

Alas, there is even more to it. I was right in the middle of upgrading my upholstery when this occurred. I paid about $2K for a new headliner and all new seats covers from Airtex. My upholstery guy already installed the headliner and the bench seat. He was going to replace front seats next week, I told him if insurance company is going to own the plane he may stop right here, I will pay him full amount (another $800) and insurance guys will own the salvage plane with brand new ceiling, and shiny bench seat but  with dull, scratched front seats

[HRM]

How do you like the LASAR bracket? Mine is worn, but serviceable, but I was still considering swapping it out.

 

I think it's great, a nice tight fit after getting the old Johnson up.

 

I started getting a bit antsy after hearing all the horror stories (ref. this thread!) and decided to have it done before The Mistress hit 50 this October.

 

Given her age, I thought the hole was getting a bit loose.

[kommers]

not necessarily so, JB could have left its position after the impact and as a result of the impact shock. No one paid attention to what JB was doing at the impact inception 

[jamesm]

Kommmers !  Does your C model have the side button?

If  call correctly my Dad's first Mooney a 62 or 63 C model did not have the side button.

I am not sure on what year Mooney start putting the side button.

My '67 C has the side button and as well pull down on the collar to retract the gear. 

What year is yours C model?

 Sorry hear hopefully you find a root cause and you get to keep flying.

James '67C

[kommers]

the whole story actually started when about 3 months ago I found that JB was getting super hard to operate. Nobody could handle it but me. My mechanic flew with me and after he failed to gear up my Mooney, he inspected the whole thing and first thing he found was that the bracket was elongated and the whole assembly needed re-rigging. So he bought another bracket but old JB didn't fit so he had to replace JB handle as well. And result was both new bracket with J-hook  and a new handle. I flew test flight and was able to gear up and down only on the first leg; on the way back I had to fly with gear down that's how tight it was. So, here we go again, another round of re-rigging. He did it light this time and I was screaming with joy but he said no, can't leave it like this your bearings in truss area are worn out if I leave it like this your gear will collapse on landing (don't judge me on technical side, I am a computer guy, not a mechanical engineer so I may not recite his words exactly). So he made JB reasonably tight again, but at least I could operate it again. So I started flying and it seemed to me like JB was getting easier and easier operate with every flight, even my wife finally was able to operate it and she said how nice it is getting manageable.. Well, it was getting nicer and nicer until yesterday...

[kommers]

it didn't have the button initially, after the bracket was replaced 3 months ago, it got that button. This is 1962 C

[KSMooniac]

Any idea if your mechanic has the service manual and followed the Mooney procedures for replacing the parts and rigging the system?  It sounds like he let the plane out with the pre-loads out of spec, and/or worn-out components in the system.  This of course did you no favors.  I'm sorry it happened to you and might cause the loss of the plane.

 

If it gets totaled-out, you can possibly negotiate with the insurance company to buy it back.  Otherwise, it will very likely be put up for auction, and the sale price might be more or less than what you can negotiate directly with them.  The airframe damage is probably not too bad to fix, but you'll need a prop and engine tear-down at a minimum and you can get estimates for those pretty easily and decide if you want to "save" the plane or move on to another one with the insurance money.

[N601RX]

It sounds to me like he was just guessing at the preload rather than measuring it. I would ask to see the mooney rigging tools he has and what preload value he used. I'm guessing there isn't any.

[furledd]

Correct me if i am wrong, but I thought the insurance company gives you what they deem "fair market value" for the plane - and takes into account prop and engine time, current market, and is not related to what you insured it for. If comparables are worth $30k on ebay then they give you $30k, not whatever value to decided to insure it for.

 

Otherwise, we all better make sure when ready to sell it, to insure your $40k airplane for $60k, then make sure "forget" to put down the gear, and then get more than your plane would sell for in the market AND with no sellers fees. 

 

When I had to replace a prop due to a prop strike a while back they said the prop was 25% worn out because it had 500 hours on it, even if it was in perfect shape and never had to have repairs or nicks filed out. They didn't give me full value there for it - same deal with the plane. Prorated Market value is what you would get. If you have a run out engine and a prop due for overhaul they wont give you squat for the repair if you have a prop strike.

 

 

One thing that high insurance level might have is the decision to total it or not, but even then, if you have $30k in repairs and its really worth $40k repaired,  and $15k for parts, would they not total it if you have it insured for $60k? Not sure.

 

By the way, I am very sorry to hear about the incident ! but glad everyone is OK. Let us all know how the insurance company decides to proceed, but I suspect they may go ahead and repair her for you if she was in top shape when it happened.

[kommers]

he did measure it I saw the instrument in his hand

[gsxrpilot]

Correct me if i am wrong, but I thought the insurance company gives you what they deem "fair market value" for the plane - and takes into account prop and engine time, current market, and is not related to what you insured it for. If comparables are worth $30k on ebay then they give you $30k, not whatever value to decided to insure it for.

 

 

No offense but I think you're wrong here. I believe my airplane is insured for an "agreed upon value." This is common for items where there is a limited number of examples and a large discrepancy between the current value and price when new. Classic cars are often insured this way. My C is insured for $60K. I had to provide pictures, logs and  equipment list to justify the value. But if it's totaled while in motion or at rest, I get a check for $60K.

[DonMuncy]

If you damage your plane, the insurance pays to repair it, and takes into account the things you mention. But if it a total loss, they pay the "agreed" value you insure it for.

It is dangerous to undervalue, as if it totals, you lose money. But it is also dangerous to over-insure. For example, if you have a $100,000 plane insured for $150,000, (and usually the insurer won't insure it for a lot more than it's worth), then if you do $100,000 in damage, they will pay to fix it, rather than paying you the 150. You wind up with a major damage history plane worth considerably less than you have in it.

Correct me if i am wrong, but I thought the insurance company gives you what they deem "fair market value" for the plane - and takes into account prop and engine time, current market, and is not related to what you insured it for. If comparables are worth $30k on ebay then they give you $30k, not whatever value to decided to insure it for.

 

Otherwise, we all better make sure when ready to sell it, to insure your $40k airplane for $60k, then make sure "forget" to put down the gear, and then get more than your plane would sell for in the market AND with no sellers fees. 

 

When I had to replace a prop due to a prop strike a while back they said the prop was 25% worn out because it had 500 hours on it, even if it was in perfect shape and never had to have repairs or nicks filed out. They didn't give me full value there for it - same deal with the plane. Prorated Market value is what you would get. If you have a run out engine and a prop due for overhaul they wont give you squat for the repair if you have a prop strike.

[flyntgr1]

Depending on how much your hull value is and amount of damage, it is likely it is total. You're probably looking at around 40k to fix. Some insurance companies, like USAIG, would pay up to the insured value to fix the aircraft. Not sure if they still do. Most take the quote verses what they think they can get out of the salvage and figure what's best for them. Lazy adjustors will just total it and be done with it. You may also be able to cash it out and keep the plane, but it probably won't be enough to fix it. That is unless you compramise on some things, like a used prop or don't do the teardown inspection.

[Bob_Belville]

When I put a 50 AMU panel in my 50 AMU plane I increased the hull coverage to $100k. The agency had to shop for an underwriter who would accept that value. It was $20k over their guidelines for make/model. Had I not done this the Ins co could have declared the plane totaled after a prop strike, paid me the $60k I had it original insured for and made money on my loss.

 

Do not under insure!  

[furledd]

Good comments folks. Insurance company has never questioned my hull value amount but I am absolutely sure i could not sell it for that amount in the open market.

 

So, you all are saying to insure it if possible for more than market value - but not too much more , otherwise it wont be totalled when it really should have been.  Interesting balancing act.

 

And, indeed the "system" does treat you differently if it's a REPAIR (Prorate , try to pay as little as possible, FBO tries to slip in more $$$ to make more on the repair but also cost you the owner money because you are paying the prorated amount of that - can you tell I have been through it? )

 

On the other hand, a TOTAL loss they just pay you what its insured for (the "agreed value")  .....  Interesting. Maybe you are better off having it totalled, and have someone else rebuild her again as some others have mentioned above, then buy a damage history free plane. and No hassle!

[RobertGary1]

It's a common misunderstanding and a difference between car vs airplane insurance. Car policies (aside from classic ) is fair market but airplanes are agreed value. If you go much over 10% over blue look the insurance co will usually ask for an explanation before agreeing to the value. My boat and classic policies work the same way.

You can also over insure to the point that the insurance co ends up fixing planes that never should be fixed. Saw Top Gun doing a full wing replacement for this reason a few years back.

-Robert

[Bob_Belville]

Good comments folks. Insurance company has never questioned my hull value amount but I am absolutely sure i could not sell it for that amount in the open market.

 

So, you all are saying to insure it if possible for more than market value - but not too much more , otherwise it wont be totalled when it really should have been.  Interesting balancing act.

 

And, indeed the "system" does treat you differently if it's a REPAIR (Prorate , try to pay as little as possible, FBO tries to slip in more $$$ to make more on the repair but also cost you the owner money because you are paying the prorated amount of that - can you tell I have been through it? )

 

On the other hand, a TOTAL loss they just pay you what its insured for (the "agreed value")  .....  Interesting. Maybe you are better off having it totalled, and have someone else rebuild her again as some others have mentioned above, then buy a damage history free plane. and No hassle!

I don't think experts would advise over insuring. What I cautioned about was someone saving money on premiums by setting a hull value low. That can be a very expensive economy.

[DonMuncy]

I agree that the insurance companies and their adjusters are trying to make a profit, and will try to steer you to the less expensive fix, just like the vendors will try to nudge you toward the more expensive updates. But generally the ones I have dealt with tend to be fair. I recently had a prop strike, and the adjuster originally tried to get me to use a local guy for a tear-down. However, when I insisted that I preferred a Mooney guy to do it, they bought off on Maxwell's quote for the tear-down, inspection, and prop replacement. They did discount the prop replacement by 1/2 the cost of a prop overhaul, as it was long past the overhaul time specified by the prop manufacturer.