aviatoreb Posted July 16, 2015 Report Posted July 16, 2015 Yikes - I can't believe this is something I never thought of before: a) if you have a reasonable possibility of gliding to an airport then tail wind is good. If you do not, then head wind is good. 1 Quote
Marauder Posted July 16, 2015 Report Posted July 16, 2015 Yikes - I can't believe this is something I never thought of before: a) if you have a reasonable possibility of gliding to an airport then tail wind is good. If you do not, then head wind is good. The challenge is making that decision while you are still coping and coming to the realization with the fact you have a problem. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
aviatoreb Posted July 16, 2015 Report Posted July 16, 2015 Yikes - I can't believe this is something I never thought of before: a) if you have a reasonable possibility of gliding to an airport then tail wind is good. If you do not, then head wind is good. Weird - I put a b for he second option - the editor changed that to a smirk face with sunglasses Quote
gsengle Posted July 16, 2015 Report Posted July 16, 2015 Thanks, I wouldn't have thought under those stressful circumstances to think about turning into the wind, but it is obvious now. Also, I'm surprised no one (that I recall seeing) brought up, that this is really one of those circumstances where a ballistic parachute would be really useful. g Quote
aviatoreb Posted July 16, 2015 Report Posted July 16, 2015 Thanks, I wouldn't have thought under those stressful circumstances to think about turning into the wind, but it is obvious now. This is the kind of thing where a forum like this shines at its best. This is something I had not thought of - but now I have - so I am learning from the community. We are smarter as a group than as individuals. Also, I'm surprised no one (that I recall seeing) brought up, that this is really one of those circumstances where a ballistic parachute would be really useful. g Yes- and no. If you find yourself in that situation, then yes I would rather the parachute. But do we need to find yourself in that situation? I cancelled an entire trip 2 days ago in part because there simply seemed to be no way to get to where I wanted to go without crossing a wide expanse of low IFR conditions. So I cancelled. No parachute needed. I figure that cancel mentality is even better than a parachute. Of course sometimes bad situations can happen anyway, but just saying. 1 Quote
mooniac15u Posted July 16, 2015 Report Posted July 16, 2015 Weird - I put a b for he second option - the editor changed that to a smirk face with sunglasses It translates that to an emoticon. If you put a space between the "b" and the parenthesis it will leave it alone. Quote
N33GG Posted July 16, 2015 Report Posted July 16, 2015 Just to state the importance of wind, 10 kts can be low wind. Not uncommon in some areas to have 30+ kts winds (eg West Texas) and now we are talking about 60+ kts difference. Groundspeed becomes a pretty big survivability deal at this point! When you lose your engine, first fly the airplane. For me this is turn into the wind (unless good reason not to do so), and find a tentative landing spot to aim for. Try to start the engine. Engine won't start, now you have a lot of other things to do... radio, door, pax, etc. Low level IMC, if I am not already pointed into the wind, I will be before I do anything else (step 1, fly the plane and be ready for worst case). Simple idea is if you get carried away and run out of time and altitude, I want to be set up to land into the wind at minimum groundspeed. Quote
gsengle Posted July 16, 2015 Report Posted July 16, 2015 Regarding ballistic parachute - pre Mooney, I had a very nice T Tailed '81 Arrow. I almost considered a very nice Skyhawk that had been a test aircraft for BRS and had a chute installed in the baggage compartment. Was actually a pretty nice plane, but I wanted retract. The BRS took up a bunch of useful load too... But I seriously thought about how it would give me a bigger mission envelope. Today if I don't generally have 1000 foot below the clouds I don't go. Generally I don't fly outside southern New England with all its airports at night. But with the BRS, I might have been for instance more willing to fly at night.. g Quote
Deb Posted July 16, 2015 Report Posted July 16, 2015 Hopefully these are considerations when the approach is briefed, and under a stressful situation there is enough time to remember and implement everything. Our engine off descent rate is about 800 ft/min. Not really a lot of time to do much more than memory items, what's just been briefed, and the checklist. Another consideration is how confident is one in executing a partial panel engine out turn in IMC so as to be pointed into the wind. In the short time available, where does one prioritize this? Is it safer to wait until one breaks out at 200–500 ft (or higher) before turning? Quote
Shadrach Posted July 16, 2015 Report Posted July 16, 2015 Now that the NTSB Preliminary report for the Plainville, MA accident has been published it's time we all faced the facts.... Interesting take. I agree with much of what you've said. You've been there, I have not. A couple things I would say just to play devil's advocate. Flap position. Flaps will significantly reduce glide distance. It is conceivable that this guy was hoping to break out and still have some options. Stall speed A36 vs M20J. This number is near enough as makes no difference. Both aircraft will stall in the mid 50Kt range depending one year and STC for the Beech. The Beech's wing will be a lot more predictable at the edge than the Mooney's. This guy was panicked and understandably so, I can only imagine the burden of having my whole family on board in that situation and likely was just barely holding it together. I agree the goal is to recognize that an off airport landing is inevitable and own it. I have read too many NTSB report where a pilot has an engine failure at something like 4500ft and ATC gives him vectors for an airport that 18 miles away. Ask for a highway or an open area. Heading toward an impossible airport is futile and just forces a change of plan at a lower altitude. Mooney pilots should expect 9 miles of glide for every 5000AGL no wind (if I had a rocket with a full feathering prop, maybe I'd figure on 11). The lower the altitude, the more conservative the plan. The age old IMC engine failure question is do you slow down immediately and hope for a reasonable option when you break out or do you carry more energy on the way down so you have more stored energy and more options available when you break out. This was not a controlled crash. Reads like a stall spin at low alt. He broke out with little energy and little in the way of options. Quote
marks Posted July 16, 2015 Report Posted July 16, 2015 Interestingly, the stall speed of my Beech Sierra turns out to be about 4 knots higher than the A36. As for gliding if you pop out high enough, I think slowing down is likely to become more important than picking up speed. After I tried to glide back to land and I was lined up into the wind, I not only had the flaps down, but I pushed the prop control forward rather than trying to reduce drag. Although I did many things right there's one observation of which I was mistaken and I think the A36 pilot made the same mistake. When the engine dies with your CS prop, the load comes off the prop and the windmilling starts and continues at just about the same speed so that you don't quickly realize that you have no power. At first I was convinced that I had partial power even though the loss of power was abrupt. I have read many accident reports where the pilot says he can't maintain altitude long before he knows he's gliding, including this accident. Planning early for the inevitable emergency crash landing can help you face the motions that you must complete. When I use my chain saw I always watch my hands move purposely slower than normal so that I don't cut off my leg. During my accident everything seemed to go in slow motion. I was determined not to yank or twist the yoke abruptly. I watched my hands shake from the adrenalin, but somehow I maintained some sort of Zen mentality as I turned off the fuel, set the flaps and flew the plane in a controlled, slow flight, like I was on rails at the end. After the accident I received a letter from the FAA telling me that I would have to appear at an Accident Reconstruction Meeting. It took several hours but I believe repetition is the mother of learning, and I was congratulated many times by the four people on the panel. I think there's one general mistake that many pilots can make in this situation. You must remember that "perfect" is the enemy of "good". If you have a chance to land in a good spot like a rough flat field, that's good - don't fly past good looking for perfect. If you land into the wind, gear up, on a rough field your chances of landing with no injuries are excellent. Don't try to save the airplane as well as yourself. Just save yourself. 6 Quote
MyNameIsNobody Posted July 16, 2015 Report Posted July 16, 2015 Marks: Seriously good stuff here. Thank you. May have saved a life with your words. THAT, is good medicine... Quote
DXB Posted July 16, 2015 Report Posted July 16, 2015 After all if GA has a statistic of a 1.7 fatal accidents in 100,000 hours, and an average pilot will fly about 800 hours in their life, that means that next time you meet 75 pilots in your airport s restaurant, one of them statistically is a dead man. Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk Statistically speaking, we are ALL dead men. No one escapes alive. Looks like my time will be up this summer when I've flown out my allotted hours. Seriously, though, I've only been to one airport restaurant that will hold 75 people, the rest of them are much smaller. If GA is six times as dangerous as driving, then the next time you're somewhere with 450 people, at least one will die on the highway. Actually, more than that will die because we all seem to spend much more time in cars than in planes. So maybe the next time you meet 75 pilots in your restaurant, two or more of them are goners, one in an airplane and one or more in their cars. Just to add a little perspective to the stats here- Say I hope to fly about 30 more years, about 1000 hours in that time, over the age range 45-75 (I'm actually a couple years younger, but it makes the math simple here). This makes my cumulative risk of death over those 30 years from flying to be about 2% based on the stat provided above. However my cumulative risk of death as a nonsmoking male in the US over that 30 years is about 20% (though obviously weighted toward the later years of that range). So I've raised my risk of death during my remaining high functioning years to 22% by pursuing a hobby I love. With eyes wide open,and commitment to reduce those flying risks that I can modify, it seems worth it. Agree with above on the excellent discussion in this thread today. I hope it reduces risk. Quote
bonal Posted July 16, 2015 Report Posted July 16, 2015 I wish I could take all this in and be able to have total recall should the situation come up. I know being IFR makes you a better pilot but it also opens the door to more hazardous flying like when I used to ride my rice rocket in all kinds of terrible winter weather, stupid right. the one thing I really miss on my Cessna 150 was the really low stall and those fantastic fowler flaps. I used to come in at 45mph power off lower flaps and pull in a ton of attack just above ground and that thing practically stopped in mid air. the head wind decision might be a tough one since a tail wind could help you reach a more favorable option. Like has been said if it happens hopefully we all stay with the airplane and make good choices to the best end. For me my best action is I am always thinking "what if it happens now" it does take some of the fun out the flying but really not. Quote
marks Posted July 16, 2015 Report Posted July 16, 2015 DXB, you can drown in a river that averages 6 inches deep. Playing with averages and statistics may help you assess relative risk, but if the mental gymnastics contribute to a fatalistic outlook, then your chances of making it out of a difficult situation will go against you. Just days ago a grand-father flying a V-Tail Bonanza crashed in turbulent weather in the middle of mountainous terrain, and the teenage grand-daughter walked miles to safety with only superficial injuries. We can only manage risk, we can't control it. Always avoid unnecessary risk and be more careful than necessary, but when all hell breaks loose hang in there. Falling off a tall building won't hurt you, it's only the landing that can kill you. Your wings are your parachute. - Practice in your mind and know what your going to do. Try to get where you want to be, but don't develop tunnel vision and try go where the aircraft can never reach. Be a pilot to the very last minute and keep flying the airplane. Quote
marks Posted July 16, 2015 Report Posted July 16, 2015 DXB, one more thing about statistics you should remember, and that is that past performance and results does not influence future events. Flip an honest coin and have it show up as heads ten times in a row, and the next time you flip it the chance it will be heads again is 50/50. Quote
DXB Posted July 16, 2015 Report Posted July 16, 2015 Not sure my statement over-reaches the limits of the stats- am familiar with their uses and misuses, for professional reasons. The broad numbers can help decide whether to be on a particular playing field of risk (e.g. in aviation or not) based on personal temperament. Contrasting general aviation to base jumping or wing suit flying based on such stats might also be interpretable. Of course they are useless for predicting risk for any individual on a given day, and they are outright dangerous if used to justify a lack of the vigilance needed to mitigate risk. Anyway, the previous discussion on when to turn into the wind in a forced landing off field was more relevant- sorry I brought numbers up... Quote
marks Posted July 16, 2015 Report Posted July 16, 2015 Nothing personal DXB, but considering all I've written so far it should be clear that I want other pilots not to see themselves as victims of statistics, but rather see themselves as Pilots in Command which is what we all are. The focus needs to be on self reflection of what we need to do when the bad things happen. Reviewing the plan of action in your mind ahead of time repeatedly, can help you overcome freezing in place. It's not just this type of accident that must be considered, but all types. If there's no thought ahead of time it can be very difficult to plan things out "on the fly". Perhaps you should consider a new thread if you'd like to discuss statistics. 1 Quote
Marauder Posted July 17, 2015 Report Posted July 17, 2015 Well, isn't this a cheery thread. Just a couple of thoughts. A few years ago I decided to "get into shape" and became an avid cyclist. One day with my best Lycra cycling clothes on, I started down the steps in my house and my slippery cycling socks caused me to slip and fall down the entire length of the stairs. Head over heels twice. I know it was twice because the coffee I had in my right hand made two beautiful circles on the wall. There I am laying at the bottom of the stairs trying to figure out if I was still playing college ball and just got laid out by the middle linebacker or if my meals from now on would be delivered via a straw. So, even if you are doing things to better yourself, you can still have things go wrong. You just can't live life with that fear. The activity we have elected to engage in has inherent risks (ask my wife about cycling inherent risks). But the difference is that you can minimize those risks by stacking the odds in your favor. I don't skimp on maintenance, I train frequently, I equipped the plane well and I stack the weather in my favor. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 4 Quote
Andy95W Posted July 17, 2015 Report Posted July 17, 2015 I find this thread mildly amusing, sad, and borderline embarrassing. In a case like this, I could care less about what it causes people to think if GA. The poor guys engine quit, in low IFR. at low altitude, over a heavily populated area. God bless ... Agreed. There but for the grace of God go I. It has made me rethink flying in low IFR conditions like I did 20 years ago. (200' ceilings? Let's go shoot approaches!) 800' AGL is now my minimums for planning a flight in my Mooney that I know, maintain, and trust. I can do an ILS if the weather changes from the forecast, but otherwise I'll wait or take the airlines. Cliffy noted in one of his posts that he rubbed the cat backwards for a long time. I'm starting to feel the same way after reading this thread, and for that I am grateful. And seriously, how often does the weather really stay below 800' for much longer than a half a day? Quote
marks Posted July 17, 2015 Report Posted July 17, 2015 daver, You belong to the "give up group". You say, "The guy didn't have any real viable options." But the NTSB report makes clear that the pilot responded shortly after being advised of the road being 2.5 miles away he was "gliding" at 1,450 ft. The road was not possible. Therefore he did have one final viable option. The option was to prepare for a crash landing. Head straight into the wind. Put down the flaps. Center the ball, maintain minimum sustainable airspeed. Turn off the fuel. He might have been lucky enough to land on the golf course that was only 2,000 ft away. That's where I landed and saved my life when I lost power in low IFR in a town with a population of 45,193 vs. Plainville, MA with it's population of just 8,264. Groundspeed at impact makes the difference of life and death. Of course the man and his family may not have survived, but survival is certainly possible. I'm sure you must agree that at some minimum altitude you must prepare for the inevitable crash. To be honest, I personally believe we should all read about the deadly accidents and to Monday morning quarterback all these accidents to learn from them, and if I ever die in a crash, please feel free to double-guess my judgements and decisions in flight, if thinking about all the different things that could have happened might have been improved upon to save my life and anyone else involved. Quote
Marauder Posted July 17, 2015 Report Posted July 17, 2015 New preflight checklist item: socks Checklist item should read "Socks Anti-Skid -- ON" Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
Marauder Posted July 17, 2015 Report Posted July 17, 2015 I think when I read through the comments, I sense the same emotions we are all feeling. There is nothing worse than reading about the loss of life, especially when a young person who was just starting their life was involved. The second guessing comes from our internal fears of "what would I do" if I were in this situation. The real answer won't be known until you face it like this pilot or hear marks and others who survived a crash landing share their experience. People respond differently to high stress situations. I just hope none of us experience it. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
MyNameIsNobody Posted July 17, 2015 Report Posted July 17, 2015 The preliminary seems to indicate he likely stalled the plane. I can't imagine being engine out in low IMC with my family on board. Just to awful to even contemplate... Something to be said about getting flaps and keeping ball centered. A controlled crash, while still a crash is a better option. Tighten belts, open door, fly plane, Tell 'em how much you love them, fly the plane all the way to the ground. FIGHT... Go down swinging. Waiting for IFR to clear in Northern Wisconsin as we speak... Quote
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