IFR with GPS flying

[MooneyBob]

I am getting new GTN 750 installed soon. So I will have bunch of questions. I fly with my GDL39 3D and Garmin iPad for now. I will keep it as a main source for weather, traffic and terrain since I am not getting GDL88 or anything like that for now. That will come later with the whole new panel overhaul.

My first question is: Does the GPS equipment on board let you file more direct routes? If so, how do you file your route? By using T routes and waypoints?

Any experiences with this? Does it save some fly time compare to airways?

[Bob_Belville]

Bob, a lot depends upon what part of the country you're flying in. Around here you'll usually be able to fly direct. You might have to deal with restricted airspace in which case you might pick an intersection that let's you skirt the class b or whatever.

 

For example, you're in NJ. You might go to some place in New England you might file jfk dir. With the 750 if (when) ATC advises amendment to routing, advise ready to copy. You'll scribble their revised routing which will likely include victor or tango airway segments and it's pretty easy to enter the new route into the flight plan in the 750. After getting past JFK and crossing the LI Sound you might be cleared dir destination.

 

I'm in NC. I usually can go direct unless that takes me through ATL or DCA Class B in which case I'll file to an intercection near the edge of the class b as the only intermediate waypoint.

 

Here's how I filed to go the last Summit:  (KMRN to KECP)  dir SINCA dir. put that in your ipad and you'll get the idea. 

 

You're going to love the 750. Doing it is easier than explaining it. 

[MooneyBob]

Bob, a lot depends upon what part of the country you're flying in. Around here you'll usually be able to fly direct. You might have to deal with restricted airspace in which case you might pick an intersection that let's you skirt the class b or whatever.

 

For example, you're in NJ. You might go to some place in New England you might file jfk dir. With the 750 if (when) ATC advises amendment to routing, advise ready to copy. You'll scribble their revised routing which will likely include victor or tango airway segments and it's pretty easy to enter the new route into the flight plan in the 750. After getting past JFK and crossing the LI Sound you might be cleared dir destination.

 

I'm in NC. I usually can go direct unless that takes me through ATL or DCA Class B in which case I'll file to an intercection near the edge of the class b as the only intermediate waypoint.

 

Here's how I filed to go the last Summit:  (KMRN to KECP)  dir SINCA dir. put that in your ipad and you'll get the idea. 

 

You're going to love the 750. Doing it is easier than explaining it.

I see. It is pretty much direct. That's great. And my Garmin Pilot shows recent routing as Direct 6000ft M20P 10/24/14. It has to be you.

I hope I will make it this year. Thanks

[Jerry 5TJ]

My first question is: Does the GPS equipment on board let you file more direct routes? If so, how do you file your route? By using T routes and waypoints?

Any experiences with this? Does it save some fly time compare to airways?

You can file "direct" anywhere, I think.

Here in the west it is common to get direct routing IFR.  For example, I recently filed KRNO direct KRAP (an unfortunate identifier) which is 800 nmi and got no deviation or vector around anything. 

Last summer I filed KGAI direct KFRG -- Gaithersburg MD to Farmingdale NY, under 200 miles.  No sale: ATC gave me EMI V93 PXT V213 HPW V260 FKN V266.  Enroute they added some more changes.

I've filed from John Wayne KSNA in southern California heading northbound many scores of times, no matter what I ask for in the Mooney I get the Anaheim Departure every time.

So the answer is, the route you're assigned depends on where you are, where you're headed, what altitude you're flying, and perhaps the phase of the moon.

[ryoder]

If it ain't vor/DME it ain't for me.

[Cruiser]

what I filed

KFDK MRB IHD KPCW

 

what I got was 

KFDK MRB V501 THS V469 JST V297 TALLS V10 YNG KPCW

 

what I flew was

KFDK vectors D> KPCW

(after I asked departure on climb out)

[Bob_Belville]

After you fly a route a time or two you know what to expect. Going into KPDK (edge of Atlanta) I know I'll be brought in from the North and leaving I'll be sent East before turning North. But with the 750 and GPSS feeding STec50  it really doesn't matter, the workload is nothing like the old days.

[AndyFromCB]

what I filed

KFDK MRB IHD KPCW

 

what I got was 

KFDK MRB V501 THS V469 JST V297 TALLS V10 YNG KPCW

 

what I flew was

KFDK vectors D> KPCW

(after I asked departure on climb out)

 

Yeap, always ask. And then ask again, and then some more. About every 5 minutes until they give it to you ;-) I have yet to fly a full departure procedure anywhere, well, maybe not anywhere but mostly if you ask for direct after 5 minutes or so, far enough from the local busy airspace, you'll get it.

[ryoder]

On pilot workshops the controllers said always file airport to airport and let them sequence you in and choose the route. They know you want to go direct and that costs are high so they will try to accommodate. Have you guys seen this to be true?

[Danb]

Bob good ol sinca seem like every time I head to New Orleans or near Atlanta I get that, out of Philly I tried to file direct and did but always got a route to copy so quickly learned the prescribed out routinging for little guys filed that and soon thereafter usually started getting my shortcuts, I assume if you go nordo they want you cleared all the way to your destination so they have certainty re your arrival. Last time leaving Gulfport the gave me direct Kilg then when I approached Charlotte they started to provide a lot of route changes, I asked if I went to Fl 18 could I get direct of which they did until Wash airspace took control...the gps is extremely useful Bob and u will fall in love with it...

[Bob - S50]

Its up to you.  Advantages and disadvantages both ways.

 

Direct is the shortest route unless there is a mountain or airspace in the way.  However, I believe for filing purposes you are supposed to file to a fix within each ARTCC airspace you will transition.  However, ATC can clear you direct to your destination without that requirement.

 

However, I prefer to still file either along airways or from intersection to intersection (fix to fix).  When I'm on a long flight I want to have a point about every 100 NM to check my time and fuel.  The sooner I figure out there's a lot more headwind than planned, the sooner I can come up with a good plan for where to get more fuel.  Besides, I've learned that by picking intersections wisely I only increase the flight distance by a couple miles.  To do that I usually fire up the GTN650 simulator and enter a flight plan with just the departure and destination stations.  I then pan through the route and add fixes that are close to the direct route.

 

I also file fix to fix to navigate around mountains, restricted airspace, TFR's, MOA's, Class B's, etc.  Once again, I use the simulator to do that, but I'm aware that some of the airspaces have changed since the simulator database was built so I need to pay close attention once airborne.

 

And I use fixes to help me navigate close to scenic spots for my wife to look at... and I always try to put them on her side of the plane if possible.  I've even created user waypoints with the Lat/Long of many famous landmarks like Mt. Rushmore, Devil's Tower, Grand Coulee Dam, Hoover Dam, Hearst Castle, Crater Lake, Meteor Crater, etc.

 

You'll love it.

 

However, get the simulator going and play with it ... a lot ... before you fly the plane IFR.  A lot of things don't necessarily work the way you would think, and solo in the soup is not the time to figure that out.

 

Bob

[MooneyBob]

Its up to you.  Advantages and disadvantages both ways.

 

Direct is the shortest route unless there is a mountain or airspace in the way.  However, I believe for filing purposes you are supposed to file to a fix within each ARTCC airspace you will transition.  However, ATC can clear you direct to your destination without that requirement.

 

However, I prefer to still file either along airways or from intersection to intersection (fix to fix).  When I'm on a long flight I want to have a point about every 100 NM to check my time and fuel.  The sooner I figure out there's a lot more headwind than planned, the sooner I can come up with a good plan for where to get more fuel.  Besides, I've learned that by picking intersections wisely I only increase the flight distance by a couple miles.  To do that I usually fire up the GTN650 simulator and enter a flight plan with just the departure and destination stations.  I then pan through the route and add fixes that are close to the direct route.

 

I also file fix to fix to navigate around mountains, restricted airspace, TFR's, MOA's, Class B's, etc.  Once again, I use the simulator to do that, but I'm aware that some of the airspaces have changed since the simulator database was built so I need to pay close attention once airborne.

 

And I use fixes to help me navigate close to scenic spots for my wife to look at... and I always try to put them on her side of the plane if possible.  I've even created user waypoints with the Lat/Long of many famous landmarks like Mt. Rushmore, Devil's Tower, Grand Coulee Dam, Hoover Dam, Hearst Castle, Crater Lake, Meteor Crater, etc.

 

You'll love it.

 

However, get the simulator going and play with it ... a lot ... before you fly the plane IFR.  A lot of things don't necessarily work the way you would think, and solo in the soup is not the time to figure that out.

 

Bob

Thanks. What simulator do you use and what is available out there? I have a played with iPad app and I keep watching tutorial,videos on you tube.

[cbarry]

Since you're using the IPad, you might find the Trip Advisor and Popular Routes information useful within the Foreflight and Garmin Pilot apps respectively--filing IFR or VFR (such as Direct with or without fixes...)

[midlifeflyer]

If you go to a site like FlyPlan.com or Fliteaware or one of the EFB apps that shows common ATC cleared routes, you'll see how many of them are either direct or have large direct segments. A lot. The amount is pretty dependent on geography.

 

The AIM has a guidance that one should select at least one named waypoint in each Center airspace. I've found that for the most part this seems to be what most of the cleared routes entail, and when I gen a route amendment, it's typically to add a real waypoint. So I generally file that way (and tune my Nav 2 to VORs)

[Marauder]

Thanks. What simulator do you use and what is available out there? I have a played with iPad app and I keep watching tutorial,videos on you tube.

When you get your 750, it should come with a CD with a PC version of the 650/750 trainer. Is the iPad app the 650/750 app? If so, it will work like the PC version but with the MFD add-on.

[PTK]

Bob, congratulations on your decision to get the 750! You'll love it!

When you get all done with the install, and if you'd like, I'll gladly fly with you and put it through its paces. I'm at VAY.

[AndyFromCB]

...

Direct is the shortest route unless there is a mountain or airspace in the way.  However, I believe for filing purposes you are supposed to file to a fix within each ARTCC airspace you will transition.  However, ATC can clear you direct to your destination without that requirement.

…

 

Bob

 

I have never found this to be the case. Those of us lucky or unlucky enough to fly in the midwest, don't know what an air way is ;-) The only time I have been forced to fly VOR to VOR is due radar outages or inability to maintain higher due to clouds, etc.

 

Are you really supposed to file like that?

[Bob_Belville]

I too have not paid attention to including a waypoint unless I want to skirt airspace or terrain. When I went to Kerrville last April I chose KJVW (Jackson MS) as a fuel stop. MRN-KJVW had me over the mountains for more than I wanted do I filed KMRN-DILLA-KJVW. Dogleg only added 3 nm (488 vs 485) and kept me over more friendly terrain as well as clear of MOA. 

[Bob - S50]

Thanks. What simulator do you use and what is available out there? I have a played with iPad app and I keep watching tutorial,videos on you tube.

 

I believe it is only available for the PC, not apple.  Like Marauder said, there will be a CD included with your GTN750.  However, until then you can download a 'lite' version to use on a PC.  Here's a link:

 

http://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=5380

 

You can use the Options menu to select which model you want, 630, 650, 730, 750, etc.

 

Bob

[Bob - S50]

I have never found this to be the case. Those of us lucky or unlucky enough to fly in the midwest, don't know what an air way is ;-) The only time I have been forced to fly VOR to VOR is due radar outages or inability to maintain higher due to clouds, etc.

 

Are you really supposed to file like that?

 

Took me awhile to find it but here is a quote from the AIM.  It applies to IFR domestic flights.  VFR they don't care.  The complete reference is paragraph 5-1-8.d.2.(f)

 

"(f) File a minimum of one route description waypoint for each ARTCC through whose area the random route will be flown. These waypoints must be located within 200 NM of the preceding center’s boundary."

 

Bob

[Bob - S50]

Here are some tips to pay attention to when you play with your new GTN750.  Of course they mostly apply to IFR.  VFR you don't really care.

 

1.  If you are sent direct to a fix, unless that fix is part of your flight plan (in the box) the GTN will let you merrily continue straight ahead after reaching the fix.  If you are supposed to resume your flight plan at some other point after the fix, you need to manually enter the 'direct' fix into the appropriate location of your flight plan.

 

2.  The box is not set up to build a holding fix in space.  The only holding it knows are those that are part of an approach.  Doesn't even know published holding fixes on airways.  To hold at some point in space, proceed direct to the fix.  Approaching the fix, once again proceed direct, but this time enter the inbound course as the 'course to' before activating.  That will draw a line through the fix with the correct course.  Then be sure to 'suspend' sequencing so the GTN will not try to take you to the next fix.

 

3.  If you load an approach, do not expect to see it show up before the airport.  The flight plan and the map will both show you flying to your destination airport, then out to the starting point of the approach (or transition), then back to the airport, then out to the missed approach.  Do not worry.  Once you activate the approach everything prior to that will be ignored.

 

4.  Don't activate an approach until cleared for it or you are getting vectors.  If you do, you'll no longer be navigating to the current point.

 

5.  If you are flying an LPV approach, do not expect to see a GS bug until the next fix is the final approach fix.

 

6.  If you enter an arrival procedure followed by an approach, there is a very good chance you will not see the distance to your destination.  This is caused by a very small discontinuity between the arrival and the approach.  Once you start the approach, distance to destination will re-appear.

 

7.  Activating 'vectors to final' removes all fixed prior to the FAF from the screen.

 

8.  Activating an approach using a transition fix immediately takes you to that fix.

 

I personally try to file over the transition fix of the approach I want.  I put that just before my destination.  However, ATC does not always cooperate and frequently derails my good planning.  The reason I do that is because if I don't file over the fix but just to the destination and then load the approach, I have no idea how far I am from the transition fix.  If I file over the fix, then the destination, I know how far I am from that fix.  That is very useful information when planning my descent.

 

I'm sure others will have other tips as well.  Share the wealth I say.

 

Bob

[midlifeflyer]

I have never found this to be the case. Those of us lucky or unlucky enough to fly in the midwest, don't know what an air way is ;-) The only time I have been forced to fly VOR to VOR is due radar outages or inability to maintain higher due to clouds, etc.

 

Are you really supposed to file like that?

You are, but it is a guidance not a rule.

 

And keep in mind that it's one waypoint in each Center airspace. Depending on where you are. that can be a pretty large area. You can file direct from Grand Rapids, MI (KGRR) to Grand Island, NE (KGRI), a 583 NM direct route and be in full compliance with the advisory. Probably easier to do in the midwest than in the more populated east and west coast areas.

[midlifeflyer]

Here are some tips to pay attention to when you play with your new GTN750.  Of course they mostly apply to IFR.  VFR you don't really care.

 

 

7.  Activating 'vectors to final' removes all fixed prior to the FAF from the screen.

 

Good tips.

 

This one is generic to most if not all IFR GPS boxes. In fact the AIM now advises to never use vectors to final, but rather load an appropriate IAF, for this very reason. Consider the effect of coming into Raleigh NC  from the west, hearing  "expect vectors to the final approach course" and entering vectors to final instead of selecting the PECIT IAF for the Runway 5L ILS:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1502/00516IL5R.PDF

 

You are now 25 NM west of RDU when the controller comes back to tell you, "Fly direct PECIT; cleared for the ILS 5L approach." 

 

Oops. Now you have to go back and re-load the approach. And that's after you stared blankly at the screen trying to figure out what the hec the controller was talking about. OTOH, if you selected PECIT to begin with and it was a vector to intercept, the absolute most you would have to do would be to tap the unit twice. And you wouldn't really have to do even that.

 

I've seen it happen a number of times, once in this exact scenario, and at other airports as well.

[ArtVandelay]

And you don't need to activate the approach, once you hit PECIT, the approach will become active. At least on Garmin boxes.

[MooneyBob]

Here are some tips to pay attention to when you play with your new GTN750.  Of course they mostly apply to IFR.  VFR you don't really care.

 

1.  If you are sent direct to a fix, unless that fix is part of your flight plan (in the box) the GTN will let you merrily continue straight ahead after reaching the fix.  If you are supposed to resume your flight plan at some other point after the fix, you need to manually enter the 'direct' fix into the appropriate location of your flight plan.

 

2.  The box is not set up to build a holding fix in space.  The only holding it knows are those that are part of an approach.  Doesn't even know published holding fixes on airways.  To hold at some point in space, proceed direct to the fix.  Approaching the fix, once again proceed direct, but this time enter the inbound course as the 'course to' before activating.  That will draw a line through the fix with the correct course.  Then be sure to 'suspend' sequencing so the GTN will not try to take you to the next fix.

 

3.  If you load an approach, do not expect to see it show up before the airport.  The flight plan and the map will both show you flying to your destination airport, then out to the starting point of the approach (or transition), then back to the airport, then out to the missed approach.  Do not worry.  Once you activate the approach everything prior to that will be ignored.

 

4.  Don't activate an approach until cleared for it or you are getting vectors.  If you do, you'll no longer be navigating to the current point.

 

5.  If you are flying an LPV approach, do not expect to see a GS bug until the next fix is the final approach fix.

 

6.  If you enter an arrival procedure followed by an approach, there is a very good chance you will not see the distance to your destination.  This is caused by a very small discontinuity between the arrival and the approach.  Once you start the approach, distance to destination will re-appear.

 

7.  Activating 'vectors to final' removes all fixed prior to the FAF from the screen.

 

8.  Activating an approach using a transition fix immediately takes you to that fix.

 

I personally try to file over the transition fix of the approach I want.  I put that just before my destination.  However, ATC does not always cooperate and frequently derails my good planning.  The reason I do that is because if I don't file over the fix but just to the destination and then load the approach, I have no idea how far I am from the transition fix.  If I file over the fix, then the destination, I know how far I am from that fix.  That is very useful information when planning my descent.

 

I'm sure others will have other tips as well.  Share the wealth I say.

 

Bob

Bob,

This is great. Thank you for putting so much work into it. I will print it out and learn the tricks. It would probably take long time to find it out on my own. I am curious what else other guys have in their sleeves. Manual is one thing but the real life experience is priceless.

Thanks.