What gives FBOs the right?

[flyboy0681]

  Except for Aspen...their ramp is always full.  That is one place where it cost me more to park for 3 days than it did to buy ~30 gallons of gas!

 

How does it feel to park among the beautiful people?

[flyboy0681]

I checked Airnav.com fuel prices in your PBI area  http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html.  

 

Wow!  Not much to cheer about in south FL.  I see that Atlantic at PBI 100LL is over $9/gallon today.  Compare this with an airport just south of ATL near me (KOPN) where fuel today is $4.95 (SS).  That's over $4/gallon difference for 100LL.  (I presume OPN is still making money at $4.95!)

 

If it isn't an active plan to drive pistons away, it might as well be.  Be glad you drive a Mooney and not a really thirsty plane.

 

Everybody I know now flies to Clewiston (2IS), where it's presently priced at $4.58

[FloridaMan]

Flyboy, that's a good question.

 

I suspect the business model the big FBO's subscribe to is:  raise the prices to squeeze out the low-end (that's us!).  Just think how many Mooneys buying 10-20 gallons it would take to equal the one jet that comes in and buys 500 gallons of jet-juice.  They really don't want that many spam cans on their ramp crowding the jets.

 

I suspect they'd love to completely do away with Avgas and just sell Jet A.  Making Avgas rediculously expensive is how they're doing it.

 

 

The issue with this is that so many military pilots and business professionals affiliated with cabin class business jets and corporate aviation are also pilots and light aircraft owners themselves. These are the people that make the decisions regarding which FBO to go to on the field, or which airport to fly into, when they arrive in their Gulfstream or squadron of military aircraft. 

[Mooneymite]

Everybody I know now flies to Clewiston (2IS), where it's presently priced at $4.58

 

Oh, I know all about Clewiston.  I've been there myself.  The problem is that the big FBO's are forcing the little airplane owners to fly half way across the isthmus to refuel.  They are, for all intents and purposes, locking us off the coast.  I really just don't have that much business in Clewiston....except to buy gas.

[flyboy0681]

Oh, I know all about Clewiston.  I've been there myself.  The problem is that the big FBO's are forcing the little airplane owners to fly half way across the isthmus to refuel.  They are, for all intents and purposes, locking us off the coast.  I really just don't have that much business in Clewiston....except to buy gas.

 

I imagine it's only a matter of time before they are taken over by one of the Big 3.

[KSMooniac]

How does it feel to park among the beautiful people?

 

I wouldn't know!  I got sent out to the far ramp and had to clean the snow off the plane by myself.  No assistance with loading or un-tying either.  $200+ in parking/landing fees doesn't go very far...

 

It was fun to go there once (brother & family live near there) but now I go to Rifle instead.  Much easier in/out and much less expensive.

[bonal]

Man I must be stupid or something, Based on my experience none of the FBO's we have visited has ever charged me a ramp or tie down fee some have them but they are waived since I am getting fuel even when we stay many days.  We have always gotten first class treatment even when we were flying our C150. In fact the FBO is one of my favorite parts about flying. Looking at most all of the posts on this subject seems like this might be an east coast mid west thing.

[Mooneymite]

 Looking at most all of the posts on this subject seems like this might be an east coast mid west thing.

 

The more desireable a location thinks it is, the more it charges....

 

If you want cheap ramp fees, go where no one wants to go.

 

However, if the airport has a Signature, a Landmark, or an Atlantic you're going to pay regardless of how undesireable the location. 

 

Location, location, location!

[flyboy0681]

The more desireable a location thinks it is, the more it charges....

 

If you want cheap ramp fees, go where no one wants to go.

 

However, if the airport has a Signature, a Landmark, or an Atlantic you're going to pay regardless of how undesireable the location. 

 

Location, location, location!

 

Don't forget Million Air.

[bonal]

Well no offense meant I dont know much, but places like Camarrilo, San Luis Obispo, Calsbad CA, Santa Rosa, Napa CA Boulder City NV Missoula MT all seem like places people might like to go based on the number of jets that I park next to.  There are several others that I would not call destination airports but they must have something going on cause there are jets all over the place, and none of them charge me for anything but gas and oil. maybe thats why I have to pay so much in taxes here.

[pinerunner]

I guess I've been lucky. I haven't run into any of these gougers flying around in Maine or on my trip bringing the Mooney back from S.Carolina. I do use Airnav to find the best gas prices. 

[cliffy]

Well lets try KSNA Orange County CA, KPSP Palm Springs CA, KTUS Tucson CA most are sewn up with the BIG 4 (or similar operations) and all are very expensive. Unfortunately I have to go to all of them. If I had any other alternative I'd use it.

Also KVNY Van Nuys CA, All avgas is over $7/gal with ramp fees and high tie down fees. The city of Los Angeles used to charge a monthly and a 10% of gross fee to FBOs there. I don't know what it is now. Tucson closed its city run terminal and fuel service and has left it to the BIG 3 there. One notable FBO there is Tucson Jet Center that actually caters to me in my little Mooney. I now use them all the time after looking at the others. One small FBO there that I used 3 times after the city closure charged me $15 just to drop off my wife and have her walk through the building to a car(I was flying out somewhere else immediately) Obviously I no longer use them. For KVNY I use KWHP (Whiteman) just 6 miles away as the gas is over a $1.30 cheaper and no ramp fees.

AOPA has not done enough, if anything, to bring this issue to the forefront and to seek solutions.

Having run FBOs in a previous life and fully realizing that they make their monthlies buy selling fuel, I still find the current trend in consolidation of FBOs from the small operator to the BIG 4 disturbing and detrimental to small aircraft.

[Mooneymite]

The problem with these threads about FBO charges is that, ultimately, no one seems to agree about "what is reasonable", or even "who should be paying".

On the one hand are the folk who figure it's a free market and FBO's that charge too much will eventually go out of business. On the other hand are the folk who don't want to pay anything, anywhere, for any reason....most of us are somewhere in the middle, but it's a wide middle.

I tend toward the free market side. However, it really does look like there's a concerted effort by the big four to squeeze small pistons off their ramps and perhaps the whole issue of leaded fuel plays into their dislike for us. With just a few big FBO's taking over so many airports, there does seem to be an anti-competitive monster rising.

As far as AOPA not doing enough....we are AOPA. What are WE going to do?

[bonal]

See like I said I don't know much. I have been very lucky as far as all the FBO I have visited and why there is so much knowledge to be found here. When I got my ppl it was a license to learn.

[DaV8or]

Flyboy, that's a good question.

 

I suspect the business model the big FBO's subscribe to is:  raise the prices to squeeze out the low-end (that's us!).  Just think how many Mooneys buying 10-20 gallons it would take to equal the one jet that comes in and buys 500 gallons of jet-juice.  They really don't want that many spam cans on their ramp crowding the jets.

 

I suspect they'd love to completely do away with Avgas and just sell Jet A.  Making Avgas rediculously expensive is how they're doing it.

 

If the big FBOs don't really want cheap skates like us, wouldn't it be in the airport's interest to set aside a small area with a self serve 100LL pump and self serve transient tie downs? This way they get both business. You know... like the old days.

 

I suspect that one reason we see the demise of the self serve transient tie downs at many of the larger airports, particularly ones with scheduled air carrier ops, is TSA. They want eyes, IDs and cameras on people going through the "secure" fence. I know this is the reason why they got rid of the transient parking at Stockton (KSCK). You now have to use Atlantic and pay whatever they want.

 

The work around at Stockton is to ask nice over at Top Gun Aviation (a MSC by the way) to park on their ramp. They are located next to where the old transient tie downs used to be. If you're just going to pick somebody up, drop them off, or just going for lunch at the restaurant, they'll likely let you go free. If you want to over night, I bet you could offer something less than Atlantic, but under the table to Top Gun to make it worth their while. This might be a strategy to try at other big city airports with this kind of FBO monopoly rip off going on. Try calling ahead to the maintenance places and see if you can work a deal.

 

As to the high gas prices, well, I suspect that what the big FBOs charge is likely what you need to charge to actually make a profit doing it. I'll bet that all the cheap $5.50 a gallon self serve pumps are just breaking even at best. I remember there used to be a guy on the AOPA forums that used to run a small FBO with self serve at Corona I think, and that's what he said. He charged cheap prices that pilots all liked, but was having a tough time breaking even. He got out and no longer sells gas. Many of the cheap pumps are run by the counties and cities just as an incentive to get people to use the airport, not as a money maker. That is the case at my home field.

 

 

Anyhow, definitely first world problems.

[flyboy0681]

 Many of the cheap pumps are run by the counties and cities just as an incentive to get people to use the airport, not as a money maker. 

 

Is there anything wrong with that I ask?

[Mooneymite]

Is there anything wrong with that I ask?

 

What I'm sensing is that due to revenues drying up during the great recession, counties were no longer willing to subsidize, or take a loss on the local airports.  There was just too much competition for the shrinking revenues.

 

During this period, the county governments got in bed with the FBO's to show airports as "revenue positive".  The FBO's liked this arrangement and the county commissioners like the cash.  At one city with a monopoly FBO, I talked to the FBO manager about the huge increase in fees and he blamed it all on the "greedy county" that demanded the airport be revenue positive.  He eneumerated the various ways that the county (through the airport authority) demanded payment.  After awhile, I actually felt sorry for the FBO trying to make money being squeezed by the airport authority on one side and the cheap pilots on the other.  

 

The major problem with the "Big Four" is that they are spreading their jet costs to the little guys.  Even though I don't use coffee, papers, ice, catering, three sets of chocks, pretty girls in little black dresses, Otis Spunkmeyer cookies and a large area of ramp space, I get charged because all these things are available to me.  I don't like the fact I have to pay for the single access security systems, but the big FBO's need it for the jets.

 

More and more, I just don't go where the jets go.  However, in some cities, there is no choice.

[flyboy0681]

What I'm sensing is that due to revenues drying up during the great recession, counties were no longer willing to subsidize, or take a loss on the local airports.  There was just too much competition for the shrinking revenues.

 

 

 

I'm not advocating the counties take a loss, simply charge enough to make a little profit. Even if they do that the price of their gas would still be several dollars a gallon less than the Big 4.

[Tom]

What I'm sensing is that due to revenues drying up during the great recession, counties were no longer willing to subsidize, or take a loss on the local airports.  There was just too much competition for the shrinking revenues.

 

This.  100%.  This is privatization at work.  Welcome to the future.  Some will be able to afford it, most will not.  Those who cannot afford it should be careful about what they wish for.

[BigTex]

There are still some really great FBO's out there. On my way up to Oshkosh this year we stopped at KJEF for fuel. I was met on the ramp by a guy from Jefferson Flying Service. We topped off the plane with maybe 20 gallons. The on airport restaurant was closed so they loaned us their courtesy car to grab lunch. When we returned, Oshkosh got socked in so we decided to stay there overnight. So they just tossed us the keys and said we'll see you tomorrow. The next day the weather wasn't moving so we opted to stay there one more night. Again, they gave us the keys to the car.

Finally the weather broke and we headed out. Went to pay and to my surprise it was all gratis. So we basically got two days worth of tie downs and a car for maybe 20 gallons of fuel at a very reasonable price.

Needless to say, they have a customer for life!

[Mooneymite]

The problem, is that as tax revenues grow, counties/cities have tasted the fruits of granting monopolies to the big boys and refuse to "go back". They no longer see airports as necessary to attract new businesses/industries, but as profit centers in and of themselves and aircraft owners as "easy targets".

We ARE easy targets because without a network of airports, our aircraft become ever more useless. We have to have them.

But they need us, too.

Our efforts (and AOPA's) should be to shift costs back toward the commercial operators and away from the individual operators.

For the most part, today's individual operators are tomorrow's commercial operators. Killing off general aviation is short sighted and self defeating.

[flyboy0681]

Not sure what the AOPA could do about the situation, but it would be nice if they at least acknowledged it.

[Tom]

Our efforts (and AOPA's) should be to shift costs back toward the commercial operators and away from the individual operators.

 

I don't disagree, but this is very thin ice to negotiate.  At the granular level, GA has long been integral to American economic growth, including small GA airports, though this difficult for the general public to appreciate. The commerical flying public that is (rightfully) getting PO'd at all the costs, fees, TSA, etc associated with flying.  Now more than ever GA is a soft target, even if GA is a big part of our country's success.

[bonal]

Perheps one thing we might do is have a place to post your experience's both good and bad for the places we encounter such as FBO's I know Airnav will show customer reviews on its site. maybe mooney space could add a FBO review category that we could use to specifically promote the good and warn of the bad. as I posted earlier ALL of my FBO encounters have been very positive. Bye the Bye Lampson Field 1o2 is hosting the Lake county Splash in this week end and the fuel will be discounted for the event and since LASAR is having its BBQ I hope to see some Mooneys on the ramp.

[DaV8or]

Is there anything wrong with that I ask?

 

None at all. I love it, but likely the operation is a net loss to the county and so the non flying tax payers indirectly subsidize the low fuel. I am not privy to the books, so I can't say for sure though. I do have to give credit to Contra Costa County for doing what they can to keep an airport open and in good condition out in the boondocks. Thumbs up!