M20C Valuation

[CJSmith]

I must admit I keep coming back to a Mooney. In the last year when I began looking around and learning, I found myself gravitating to any Mooney on the ramp or in the air.

There is a pull that way but it is not from any flight experience, so I can't say I'm hooked.

The 0-360, speed, and looks, keep the airplane on my short list. The simple systems help. It may be I'm drawn to them from my high school years working the line at an MSC. Back then I thought everyone owned Mooneys. They were everywhere. Now among professional aviators at work, all I hear are rumors and comments why NOT to buy a Mooney (helicopter guys, what do we know about F/W aircraft anyway?).

In the past year, three guys at work have bought airplanes. A 210, Lance, and ratty Arrow 200. 6 others have a 177RG, Vagabond, Mustang II, AA-1B, RV-6, and my Bro's 28-140. One other had an M20E his partner totaled on a forced landing short of the runway. Before I could get a ride of course. Engine valve train failure.

Can you imagine the conversations? "You're crazy...Mooneys are too tight, look at so-an-so's E, the engine overheats with that tight cowl, and failed etc, etc. "I can't see out of them things". "Get a 182, or better yet a 210". "With Mooneys no mechanic will work on 'em".

I wonder, how many of these guys will still have their airplanes 18 months from now? I have to remind them I'm on a 28-180 budget.

Curious, no one has a Bonanza.

Chris

[KSMooniac]

I'll still maintain that an M20C will be the cheapest to run per mile, and it will be pretty close to the overall budget (by hour) of a PA28-180.  Everyone says fixed gears are cheaper, but they are not completely maintenance free.  You'll have to fiddle with the oleos and wheelpants on the Cherokee, which is likely a wash compared to the maintenance on a J-bar M20C.

It is time for you to go fly one!

[140pilot]

When I had my 20C I came from a Cherokee 140. To be honest if you do the math on time savings assuming you are flying 200 mile trips strictly from the point A to point B stand point the PA 28 would be the better deal considering price, insurance and maint. I found when you get out to 400 miles or more ( in our case it was 600 ) the 20C could not be beat. Insurance was around 250 a year higher on the Mooney. Annuals ran around 600 dollars more. As for the storm scope we had an old WX 8 and loved it. We did not have the XM weather so flying on a hazy day and knowing what was around you was good. We had a simple Century 1 AP and that really took a load off on a long trip so I imagime the STEC 30 would be a god send.

As for the engine being 0 SMOH you need to ask questions. Who did the OH. Is it a service limit special done in the hangar or was it a new limits with new accesories job done by a good shop. While the varisol OH looks good on paper in reality you might have been better with an over TBO engine from a good shop. My 20C was still going strong at 2300 SMOH where my friends PA 28 had already had a camshaft failure at 400 hours and a top OH at 600.

As for the bird being worth 62K I think it is high unless the engine OH was new limits, all accessories done from a reputible shop. Also the KLN 88 is dead weight now but you could add a KLN 90 or I believe a KLN 94 easily.

In the end if you are VFR like me all I want is a solid mid time 20C with a couple KX 175B's a KR 86 and maybe a DME and I will be happy for say 38K or so.

[CJSmith]

My brother has the nicest Cherokee 140 I've ever seen. I'm still jealous of it but fear I would want to move up in a short while.  I figure as good a pilot as he is he'll probably move up soon as well. Hope he can keep it for the young folks.

The 28-180 was a compromise idea. I'd probably want a bit more sooner rather than later on that too. My concern is a maintenance hog or too much airplane. I don't need long distance or hard IMC. I get plenty of the high stakes stuff at work.

Guys in my income bracket buying Lances, 210s, and even J-models are going to be slaves to the man for a while. Whether it be U. Sam , A&Ps, or divorce lawyers, some will have to pick one or more. So this is where I'm coming from.

The C seems to fit, but edgy if a good one's going to run 60k.  I want to be smiling when the hangar door opens, not shaking and looking over my shoulder. Throw a rod at 40k, I'll survive. Throw it at 60k and I'll have serious 'splaining to do.

Anyone flown with a less than happy spouse? How's that work for ya?

You folks are great.

Chris

[mjc]

Quote: CJSmith

My brother has the nicest Cherokee 140 I've ever seen. I'm still jealous of it but fear I would want to move up in a short while.  I figure as good a pilot as he is he'll probably move up soon as well. Hope he can keep it for the young folks.

The 28-180 was a compromise idea. I'd probably want a bit more sooner rather than later on that too. My concern is a maintenance hog or too much airplane. I don't need long distance or hard IMC. I get plenty of the high stakes stuff at work.

[rob]

I didn't even make it a full year in my Cherokee before I had the itch to move into the Mooney.

I see you're in Adams, TN - if you're ever down near Memphis, let me know. I fly a 65 M20C that I think is the perfect airplane! Would I like the speed of a J, sure, but I'm not willing to pay the premium for it. I love my manual flaps and gear, and have a T Panel in so it's a modern looking interior. It's plenty big for anything I've ever wanted to do, including a short trip with 2 men and 2 women, or a long trip with 3 guys. I don't find the throttle/prop/mixture controls the least bit awkward either...

That's my 2 cents!

[Barry]

I actually had this very plane in pre-buy in November of last year. During the pre-buy they found the engine was junk. Broke my heart. All American immediately pulled it off the line and to the rebuilder it went.

There was a 2nd plane there, N5956Q, which I ended up buying. Not as many up-grades, actually pretty stock, but there had been a TON of fixed completed on it by the previous owner over the last 4 years, including resealing both wings. Maybe a little rougher in the interior but mechanically in excellent condx and it had a Brittan autopilot (as well as the PC) and a GNS-430 in it to boot. I've been very happy with it.

I flew 5956Q from San Antonio to Mobile, Al and then to Martinsburg, WV. in an attempt to get around the storm which was dumping a boat-load of snow in WV. I flew back at 9000 at 20 squared and got about 19 MPG for the trip. I never expected a plane to get that kind of mileage.

This is my 3rd plane and I believe it is a keeper. Maybe a few knots slower than the "E", but cheap to fly, low maintenance and a bullet-proof engine to boot.

Not a bad combination ...

[CJSmith]

All of you have been truly helpfull. I realize that someone owning a Mooney might have a certain bias, but there's probably a good reason. And it comes from your experience.

I'm encouraged to hear the C-model might fit the mission, and it appears my instincts over out growing a Cherokee type are not far off.

It does surprise me that so many Mooneys still have original shotgun panels, but it's understandable that an owner would resist upgrades if the C-model was considered an interim step-up aircraft. It's tempting to upgrade a panel only if it includes Garmin stuff and A/Ps, but why not at least shuffle the current instruments to where they should be?

I still don't have confidence I understand the wildly varied pricing on C-models.

Barry's note regarding the state of the original engine in this aircraft at pre-buy is VERY troubling considering the brokerage firm's reported reputation. Then it comes back on the market marked up that much?

Barry-did it take any unusual effort on the part of the pre-buy team to uncover that engine's issues? Would normal pre-buy technique have uncovered it in your estimation? Would regular flying by the seller/owner have discovered the problem? Kudos to those folks that found it. 

I don't intend to disparage any company's reputation. Especially since I have no personal experience with that company. But MAPA refers to them often, and some of you have referenced their reputation.

I'm not the kind that sees a crook around every corner. Stuff happens. But for a first time buyer this confirms I'm treading into a mine field and a buddy just ahead of me heard a "click".

Chris

[Cruiser]

Ask to see the parts list for what was replaced when the engine was overhauled. New cylinders? The biggest items of concern are always the camshaft and the crankshaft. How many times has this particular engine been overhauled? Field overhauls can be very different from specialty shop overhauls.

With this brokers generally favorable reputation in the Mooney community, I was VERY SURPRISED to hear the plane was offered for sale in that condition to begin with. Maybe there are circumstances not known, but I am still surprised. If they were willing to push it (offer to sell) there may not have been much effort put into the overhaul either.

[Barry]

Regarding the engine on the red/white Mooney.

No, All American aircraft was shocked about the engine. As a matter of fact, my mechanic, Ron Fisher, was allowed to use All American's hanger to do the pre-buy. All American had bought this plane from the previous owner just after it had been annual'd by a well known Mooney expert in Texas. They were confident that the plane was OK because of his name on the annual. They were quite shocked when Ron found the engine problem.

I can honestly say that I felt that All American wanted to sell me a quality product. My experience with them found them to be honest in their appraisal. This event, more than any other in the past few aircraft I had owned proved to me that the money spent on the pre-buy is money well spent. Even the experts miss something once in awhile. This mistake cost All American beau coup bux.

I would not hesitate to work with All American in the future. They are not cheap but they are a class act.

[CJSmith]

Barry-Thanks for the clarification regarding AAA. I'd prefer there were more reputable and successful brokers/dealers and service centers, not less. Heaven knows small business is under attack from a number of angles enough as is. A companies' response to a problem such as you encountered says more about them in the end. Bad things happen to all of us. No company is totally immune.

If I were them, I'd consider a regular and recurring pre-flight, flight, post-flight sequence on all aircraft in inventory. Isn't there something to be said about machines sitting? I've noticed airplanes in dealers listings for over a year. Yet they never update the hours advertised. I assume the aircraft are sitting around. But, they are the ones in business so they must know something I don't.

On another note. I continue to be baffled by the bad vibes people have about Mooneys. We have a saying at work. "If you're scared, say you're scared". When I ask why, the quick answer is always they are too small. As you would expect, most of these guys haven't been in one, but they "know of a guy" that had one.

This attitude about Mooneys is no different at the airport, in EAA meetings, and among airplane drivers with decades of flying. I will have to see for myself. And that's what folks on this forum would suggest.

But, in a year of reading the MAPALOG. My take away is: Landing accidents, landing accidents, landing accidents. Gotta go to only experienced Mooney CFIs. Don't get work done except at an MSC, etc. Good grief, really? From outside looking in, makes one wonder about the type.

[scottfromiowa]

I enjoyed reading all these replies especially Berry and Jim's comments.  CJ, it really comes down to mission.  If you are NOT flying cross country 400-600 miles then speed is NOT the thing.  Why pay for a retract Mooney when you can get your Cherokee 180?  I have flown Cessna's and Cherokee's...For my primary mission (flying 400 miles) the 172 was 3 hours and the 180 was 2 1/2.  The Mooney is 2.  You stretch out more in a Mooney.  They accomodate tall just fine.  I am 6 feet and I have to slide Waaay forward to pedals (get that shoulder harness).  The M20C M20E are three person airplanes...(unless you have children or are 150 pound occupants.  That does NOT apply to my wife and I and our kids refused to stop growing...but one is now in college so we are FINE.  The Mooney's strengths are speed, efficiencey (fuel burn) and strength (the roll cage and strength of the Mooney wing are Legendary).  Go sit in one.  Go fly in one.  I will NEVER be happy in a Cessna or a Cherokee after flying Mooney...Regarding service.  Don't buy a hanger queen.  If the plane hasn't flown at least 50 hours a year for the past few years you will pay to get maintenance squared away....walk away.  If a mechanic knows Mooney's you should be fine.  DON'T pay to educate somebody.  Find a mechanic that KNOWS MOONEY's.  If you fly 100 mph on final and 80 mph over the fence landings will be a non-event.  If you fly 100 mph over the fence on a short runway and try to force it down as the big Laminar wings glide and glide...then you have no-one to blame but yourself.  Flying with a wife that doesn't like to fly means getting there fast.  Less time for her to vasilate.  When she gets there in 2 hours vs. a 6.5 hour drive even SHE will understand the value of a Mooney.  Good luck with your decision and watch for 1. Corrosion 2. Weeping wing tanks

[Comatose]

I've been looking at this aircraft for a while too. I think AA is feeling out where the market is going rather than trying to sell airplanes this month. They just listed three different planes all at $62500. When I was talking to Jimmy before it went back onto the market, he was talking lower dollar amounts than it is listed for now.

On the other hand, if it was "my" color and a bit shinier? I might go soft in the head and bite...

[CJSmith]

Great comments. Well said. I get it. What I don't get is how many don't. And for dubious reasons.

As recommended, I won't commit before flying.

I have only one major Mooney concern, once I understand fair pricing. Maintenance. Although important, the buying price is just an entrance fee. Sustaining airworthiness is the real measure. A Mooney is unique enough that my impression is it will require more effort than average for a 180 hp type. So be it.

Most here indicate it's well worth the effort over a Cherokee compromise. That's great to hear. Confirms my suspicions. A good CFI friend of mine; an older pilot such as I, said just yesterday. I would outgrow a Cherokee before the first annual, and that I've been flying too long. Some of you said the same thing.

So few know Mooneys, it's hard to find an authoritative ally to talk pricing, costs, etc. Only my closest friends would tell me what they paid for airplanes too. But none of them have bought a Mooney.

M20C remains very high on a dwindling list.

[scottfromiowa]

Find out who did the major.  Did this include new jugs?  New hoses?  Re-built exhaust?  Re-Built mags?  Re-built generator?, re-built oil cooler? Tanks tight?  SB-208 (corrosion in cabin tubes) complete?  If all boxes are checked this plane would be right on with mods and paint...five years ago.  Now without a panel mounted GPS I think the price is high and would go for less.  Tell them to remove DME and ADF and put in the 430 and it is priced right.  (for you to get a good deal).  This seems to be a lot more plane than my '66 E that I paid $54k for five years ago...I'm NOT saying...I'm just say'n

[140pilot]

My 20C was maintained locally by the same AP/AI that worked on my Cessnas and Pipers. The only time I went to an MSC was to have the gear checked after the gear failed to come down which turned out to the the electric motor and I had to use crank ( I will add here if you have never used the manula crank put the thing on jacks and test it out. Flying with no AP on a turbulent day with 1 hour fuel left on board is not fun for a first time. )  We both read the manuals did things by the book and made lots of calls if we had an issue. The O 360 A1D is about as bullet proof of an engine as you will find. Avionics are avionics and if you dont have a 201 windshield not that hard to work with.

I just did not see the aircraft as a difficult plane to deal with. I will say that after flying it to the factory once and seeing how they were built I always felt safe in it. As for its handling differences again I just never saw it. I bought the thing, read the POH and got the numbers down got in it and flew it. I never had a check out in it until my BFR a year later and never had an issue landing it. If you had it set up and on the numbers and it was trimmed right it lands fine.

I found most people that have " Mooney stories " have never flown one. Most are old wives tales passed down as gospel. Its hard to land, the wing is hot and the stalls bite and on and on. In fact it is a rock solid, efficent, predictable aircraft. You respect it and fly it by the numbers and it is one of the best aircraft out there.

[CJSmith]

 Jim- You've contributed greatly. I, and I'm sure others would continue to benefit if you have more to say.

My basis of comparison with maintenance costs is a Commanche 180 and Arrow 180. I can afford them.

The evidence says to purchase an Arrow will cost more than an M20C, which is more than a Commanche all variables being equal.

The listed M20C is over-priced by at least 12k. It's worth a glance due to the A/P. 0 time engine an unknown. It has goo-ga in the panel but the wrong kind. In my mind the 6-pack is the best feature.

No one has offered up any maintenace gotchas that should scare me away.

Should we talk Bonanzas?  

[DaV8or]

Quote: CJSmith

 Should we talk Bonanzas?  

[CJSmith]

Just kidding. 180hp fits mission.

[triple8s]

Unless you have lotys of "crap" to haul around avoid the Bo it is fast and pretty but takes big thirsty engine to get'r done. I get 147KTAS with an O-360 Lyc. I have manual gear and manual (hyd) flaps and there just aint much to go wrong with those. From my experience the "C" I have has been a very cheap airplane to operate, I can drive to the hangar in 20 minutes preflight and be on the atlantic coast in just under 2 hours and it costs about 16 gals of 100LL, now what could be better??? Oh and a 45 year old "C" does NOT have to look old.

[Urs_Wildermuth]

Chris and all,

highly interesting discussion, I wish I had found this forum long before. I realize this discussion is now idle for 2 months but I still want to jump in.

I fly since 83, owned a Cessna 150 for a few years while collecting hours for my CPL/IR (Europe). Got my Multi, flew Senecas and Antonovs for a while in search of that airline job. Stopped flying when the big ones did not want me but got back into it in the last 3 years, retraining and revalidating my license and ratings. And clearly I wanted my own plane again as I am not the charter person others may be.

I started looking in 2007, set myself a price tag which is way below what has been discussed here. That got me to consider primarily old Cherokees and the odd Grumman Cheetah which crossed my paths. They were somewhere in the $20k region, most of them old 140/180's with original panels and stone age avionics.

I have been looking for range primarily, as I want to travel trips of up to 700 NM regularly, possibly longer. The Cherokees could not do this. The Cheetah neither, even tough it came close. Ran across an Arrow II, but shied away after I saw the bills of the last several annuals.

Then, late last year, I got across a M20C. My first reaction was a big laugh, what, me buy a Mooney? Heavens, they are for mid level executives with large incomes to feed them. Then I got the POH and asked for the last couple of annual and maintenance bills. Had a close talk to the guy who maintained it for the last 20 years, who incidently also maintained one of the Cherokees I was after. And, to my amazement, found out that it could do things cheaper than the Cherokees. Runs on 8-9 GPH at 140 kts, and can do 500-600 NM hands down. Load was about the same as on the Cherokee 140, but heavens, at what a difference. I picked this plane up very fast at a very good price and have not looked back.

On the avionic side, it features a full T panel with GNS430 and King digital radios, plus a Trig TT31 Transponder I had to add due to Mode S requirements. Otherwise it is a stock M20C, manual gear and flaps. The engine is on condition, but is running perfectly, obviously the fact that it will need an overhaul eventually is calculated in the price.

Re the cabin dimensions, I found it more comfortable to sit in than any of the Pipers I flew. And I am no small guy, with 6 ft 2 and well over 250 lb. I find that with the useful load I can take my wife plus ample baggage or two other adults easily, 4 gets tight but is feasible.

Frankly, when faced with the same decision, I would look earlier for the Mooneys. I thought they were beyond my financial capabilities but looking at what some of those Cherokees cost to maintain, not even Arrows which are much worse, I am very happy with my choice. I do think that I will fly it for a long time to come. I'll be looking to add Monroy tanks and an autopilot eventually and am in contact with Brittain. After reading the messages here, I think I'll go that route.

Chris, from what I have seen, you can't go wrong with a C Model. It will do just about everything a Cherokee 180 will do, other than carry the same load, but it will do it much faster and more economical. Like you, I took a long time to reach a decision. In retrospect it was worth the time but mainly because I did not have the adivce one gets here.

Best regards

Urs

[Stefanovm]

I went through the same realization of the larger meaning of being able to own and fly a Mooney as Urs_Wildermuth. I would have had a Mooney in the 70s if I had actually known the truth. I have one now and am hoping the fears that kept me from doing so are unfounded. Flying one is much better so far than any of my other aircraft. I am still fearful of the maintenenace.